Encryption


harvey morse
 

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

 

K1DJG


Joe M.
 

If it weren't for criminals, there would be no police to monitor. ;->

Joe M.

On 5/14/2020 5:08 PM, harvey morse wrote:
As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want
to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption
wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

K1DJG


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jeff
 

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels, swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@...
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

 

K1DJG




Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 

There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption.  I have been listening to police calls since the early 60's.  I was a Denver Police officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.   Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main dispatch channel.   And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee) unencrypted audio from past events. 



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@...> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels, swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@...
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

 

K1DJG





Joe M.
 

This makes perfect sense.

"Gee - there was a burglar in my neighborhood last week - I
should get in my time machine and go back and lock my doors"

I won't even address the "nominal fee" for
information related to your own safety.

The more encryption spreads, the more armed citizens there will be.
I've seen it happen in areas near me. It's too bad the number of untrained will rise, but hey - as long as it's more safe, right?

Sorry, but criminals have no privacy
rights that supersede my safety rights.

In fact, one could argue that protecting their
privacy encourages more criminal activity.
(or was that the intent all along?)

We may as well just replace the news with
game shows due to privacy concerns.

Joe M.

On 5/14/2020 6:30 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption. I have been
listening to police calls since the early 60's. I was a Denver Police
officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I
agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.
Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are
programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main
dispatch channel. And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee)
unencrypted audio from past events.



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@comcast.net> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure
criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal
day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels,
swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@probate.com
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who
want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption
wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

K1DJG



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baldwinbob2000
 

Yep, I do too.  I'm sure the dude who owns RR doesn't want to hear
that.

I heard a 2+ hours chase a couple years ago and every time a car
would say where he was the guy would turn.  Finally, a cop said, "he's
listening to us."

My first scanner was a Bearcat III so I'd sure hate for it all to go encrypted,
I've been listening for decades.

On Thursday, May 14, 2020, 05:05:37 PM CDT, jeff <jeffm1977@...> wrote:


I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels, swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@...
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

 

K1DJG




AC2FV
 

There’s no such thing as secret police until the police start keeping secrets.

Dispatch should be unencrypted, tactical channels should be encrypted. Easy to do in today’s digital world.

PD and Emcomm all say keep alert, watch out for…, be prepared… and then they go silent on dispatch.



Scott Conover 
Email: xtraham@...

Amateur Call: AC2FV
GMRS Call:WQRD399

RACES ID: 2-002
ARES AEC, Town of Huntington
CERT
American Red Cross
SkyWarn: 19-36-NYC


Jeff Kenyon
 

I’ve also been listening since I was a little kid, and fortunately for me all of the places where I’ve lived have been in the clear.  I was at a training center for the blind in Michigan and when I was their the trunked system was a plain old Motorola Type II system.  Now that same agency in the area as well as the other law enforcement coms for the area in general are mostly encrypted.  Here in Rochester on our new trunked system the county has a couple of special ops talkgroups that are encrypted.  People are hoping to move all the way over to the system by the end of the year, and hopefully day to day operations for the city and county stay in the clear.  I take the move date with a grain of salt because this system has been up since about 2012 or 13 and it mostly has been a lot of patching to VHF and UHF stuff, but the patching is starting to increase.


On May 14, 2020, at 6:43 PM, baldwinbob2000 via groups.io <baldwinbob2000@...> wrote:


Yep, I do too.  I'm sure the dude who owns RR doesn't want to hear
that.

I heard a 2+ hours chase a couple years ago and every time a car
would say where he was the guy would turn.  Finally, a cop said, "he's
listening to us."

My first scanner was a Bearcat III so I'd sure hate for it all to go encrypted,
I've been listening for decades.

On Thursday, May 14, 2020, 05:05:37 PM CDT, jeff <jeffm1977@...> wrote:


I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels, swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@...
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

 

K1DJG




Jeff Kenyon
 

Hi Don, I’ve noticed that a lot of stuff in Colorado including Denver has been encrypted.  All the agencies to encrypt seemed to spring up out of nowhere, and were agencies that even though on trunked systems for many years.


On May 14, 2020, at 6:30 PM, Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...> wrote:


There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption.  I have been listening to police calls since the early 60's.  I was a Denver Police officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.   Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main dispatch channel.   And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee) unencrypted audio from past events. 



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@...> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels, swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@...
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

 

K1DJG





don robinson
 

I thought legalizing weed was supposed to cut down on crime. Maybe they're chasing communists insurgents now. I'll give up when I see streetwalkers sporting SDS-100s tucked down their hot pants. There's an old saying, "Get a new tool and you'll find more stuff that needs fixing".




On Thursday, May 14, 2020, 03:56:40 PM PDT, Jeff Kenyon <jkenyon7@...> wrote:


Hi Don, I’ve noticed that a lot of stuff in Colorado including Denver has been encrypted.  All the agencies to encrypt seemed to spring up out of nowhere, and were agencies that even though on trunked systems for many years.


On May 14, 2020, at 6:30 PM, Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...> wrote:


There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption.  I have been listening to police calls since the early 60's.  I was a Denver Police officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.   Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main dispatch channel.   And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee) unencrypted audio from past events. 



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@...> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels, swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@...
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

 

K1DJG





Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 

Joe,

The privacy isn't for the criminal. The privacy is for calls like welfare checks, ambulance patients having their name and dob and health issues broadcast in the clear. That the burglar alarm at 123 main St is the 4th false alarm this week, etc.

You may believe in anarchy and rebellion... Your choice, don't be surprised if you lose. I am absolutely against these Covid lockdown and I am a high risk candidate. I believe those lockdown orders are unconstitutional. There are legal ways to get those orders removed and never allowed to return. Protests.. Fine.... Gunshots.. Nope.

Don

On May 14, 2020 4:42:46 PM "Joe M." <mch@nb.net> wrote:

This makes perfect sense.

"Gee - there was a burglar in my neighborhood last week - I
should get in my time machine and go back and lock my doors"

I won't even address the "nominal fee" for
information related to your own safety.

The more encryption spreads, the more armed citizens there will be.
I've seen it happen in areas near me. It's too bad the number of
untrained will rise, but hey - as long as it's more safe, right?

Sorry, but criminals have no privacy
rights that supersede my safety rights.

In fact, one could argue that protecting their
privacy encourages more criminal activity.
(or was that the intent all along?)

We may as well just replace the news with
game shows due to privacy concerns.

Joe M.

On 5/14/2020 6:30 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption. I have been
listening to police calls since the early 60's. I was a Denver Police
officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I
agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.
Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are
programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main
dispatch channel. And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee)
unencrypted audio from past events.



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@comcast.net> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure
criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal
day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels,
swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@probate.com
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who
want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption
wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

K1DJG

<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
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Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 

I agree, it was just recently that Denver went all encryption. 

There were always encrypted channels, even in 1971 when I joined the PD.  The encryption wasn't digital it was analog voice inversion and only on vice and narcotics channels.  There were also a few simplex channels that were only usable line of sight... Mostly for speed enforcement on the interstate. 

Don

On May 14, 2020 4:56:20 PM "Jeff Kenyon" <jkenyon7@...> wrote:

Hi Don, I’ve noticed that a lot of stuff in Colorado including Denver has been encrypted.  All the agencies to encrypt seemed to spring up out of nowhere, and were agencies that even though on trunked systems for many years.


On May 14, 2020, at 6:30 PM, Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...> wrote:


There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption.  I have been listening to police calls since the early 60's.  I was a Denver Police officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.   Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main dispatch channel.   And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee) unencrypted audio from past events. 



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@...> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels, swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@...
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

 

K1DJG






Rick NK7I
 

I too have been in the business of public safety for a career.

Hearing welfare checks can be useful, there is no loss of privacy (but it might also be your neighbor you assumed was away), just as there isn't when a burglary is reported.  HIPPA and other laws protect the privacy of folks during a medical aid call too, no worry there unless the responders are violating the law.  ALL of this is useful because it give one a sense of the neighborhood (might be yours, might be across town) and makes one more aware (a trend growing in your neighborhood?), potentially more alert thereby safer.

I see the need for encryption in certain cases but if it's REALLY needing security, use a cell phone or land line (they still exist).  But for the rest (non-SWAT, undercover), there isn't a need and it does cause one to wonder what is being hidden.  A common law abiding citizen shouldn't have to jump through hoops to know they are/were at risk in or near their own home when real time information (raw data) is available.

I live 30 miles away from two state lines (and a country border), each state having P25 networks, one is encrypted.  A recent vehicle chase from WA crossed into ID (encrypted, lack of common communications except via dispatchers) then into MT...  that encryption, even with common systems (except frequency bands) caused some serious lag time in sit-reps.  There is no intertie, no back door and it would cost the public a bleeding fortune to have each patrol car with 460, 700 and 800 MHz trunked radios (and no common high band channels either between patrol units).  Yes, those are two issues but they couldn't even use their scanners once across the state line to get rapid updates (the vehicle crashed, just into MT, the road is gnarly at speed).

Further, now that I'm retired, clear channel is useful when traveling so I can hear of the semi that flipped 40 miles ahead or forest fire road closure; which allows me to re-route or stop for a meal or the night while it clears.  That make me part of the traffic solution, not one of the vehicles waiting backed up for hours.

In one instance, a medical aid call came in at a National park I was visiting.  It had immediate life threats and the closest unit was 25 minutes away and I was a mile away.  Still being certified, I jumped in, assisted successfully and slipped out when the responders arrived to take over.  Now if that has also been encrypted... the coroner was 4-5 hours away and it would have been a LONG night for many.

Rick NK7I
North Idaho

On 5/14/2020 4:35 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
Joe,

The privacy isn't for the criminal.   The privacy is for calls like welfare checks, ambulance patients having their name and dob and health issues broadcast in the clear.  That the burglar alarm at 123 main St is the 4th false alarm this week, etc.

You may believe in anarchy and rebellion... Your choice, don't be surprised if you lose.   I am absolutely against these Covid lockdown and I am a high risk candidate.  I believe those lockdown orders are unconstitutional. There are legal ways to get those orders removed and never allowed to return.    Protests.. Fine.... Gunshots.. Nope.

Don


On May 14, 2020 4:42:46 PM "Joe M." <mch@nb.net> wrote:

This makes perfect sense.

"Gee - there was a burglar in my neighborhood last week - I
should get in my time machine and go back and lock my doors"

I won't even address the "nominal fee" for
information related to your own safety.

The more encryption spreads, the more armed citizens there will be.
I've seen it happen in areas near me. It's too bad the number of
untrained will rise, but hey - as long as it's more safe, right?

Sorry, but criminals have no privacy
rights that supersede my safety rights.

In fact, one could argue that protecting their
privacy encourages more criminal activity.
(or was that the intent all along?)

We may as well just replace the news with
game shows due to privacy concerns.

Joe M.

On 5/14/2020 6:30 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption.  I have been
listening to police calls since the early 60's.  I was a Denver Police
officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I
agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.
Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are
programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main
dispatch channel.   And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee)
unencrypted audio from past events.



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@comcast.net> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure
criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal
day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels,
swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@probate.com
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who
want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption
wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

K1DJG

<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
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Rick Schafer
 

It’s the exaggeration Of what was heard then suddenly put on social media that ruined it. 


On May 14, 2020, at 3:05 PM, jeff <jeffm1977@...> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels, swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@...
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

 

K1DJG




Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 

Rick,

Then you know that no option is perfect. You know there are stories like yours where hearing a clear channel dispatch helped you assist.

But I bet you also know about ambush setups by listening to dispatch and one of the cops arrives and is shot. You've heard of gawker blocks on a tactical situation. Etc.

I have certainly lived through both types of situations.

John and Jane Doe are having a family fight, John beats the **** outta Jane. Cops get there and send Jane via ambulance to hospital... Paramedic calls in.. Bringing in xyz diabetic female, BP x/y, 45yrs old, knife wounds in the chest and neck...

Anyone listening now knows who they are talking about and her private medical records... In violation of HIPPA

Anyway.. I have had my say... I'll shut up now.

Don

On May 14, 2020 6:03:57 PM "Rick Bates, NK7I" <Rick.NK7I@gmail.com> wrote:

I too have been in the business of public safety for a career.

Hearing welfare checks can be useful, there is no loss of privacy (but
it might also be your neighbor you assumed was away), just as there
isn't when a burglary is reported. HIPPA and other laws protect the
privacy of folks during a medical aid call too, no worry there unless
the responders are violating the law. ALL of this is useful because it
give one a sense of the neighborhood (might be yours, might be across
town) and makes one more aware (a trend growing in your neighborhood?),
potentially more alert thereby safer.

I see the need for encryption in certain cases but if it's REALLY
needing security, use a cell phone or land line (they still exist). But
for the rest (non-SWAT, undercover), there isn't a need and it does
cause one to wonder what is being hidden. A common law abiding citizen
shouldn't have to jump through hoops to know they are/were at risk in or
near their own home when real time information (raw data) is available.

I live 30 miles away from two state lines (and a country border), each
state having P25 networks, one is encrypted. A recent vehicle chase
from WA crossed into ID (encrypted, lack of common communications except
via dispatchers) then into MT... that encryption, even with common
systems (except frequency bands) caused some serious lag time in
sit-reps. There is no intertie, no back door and it would cost the
public a bleeding fortune to have each patrol car with 460, 700 and 800
MHz trunked radios (and no common high band channels either between
patrol units). Yes, those are two issues but they couldn't even use
their scanners once across the state line to get rapid updates (the
vehicle crashed, just into MT, the road is gnarly at speed).

Further, now that I'm retired, clear channel is useful when traveling so
I can hear of the semi that flipped 40 miles ahead or forest fire road
closure; which allows me to re-route or stop for a meal or the night
while it clears. That make me part of the traffic solution, not one of
the vehicles waiting backed up for hours.

In one instance, a medical aid call came in at a National park I was
visiting. It had immediate life threats and the closest unit was 25
minutes away and I was a mile away. Still being certified, I jumped in,
assisted successfully and slipped out when the responders arrived to
take over. Now if that has also been encrypted... the coroner was 4-5
hours away and it would have been a LONG night for many.

Rick NK7I
North Idaho


On 5/14/2020 4:35 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
Joe,

The privacy isn't for the criminal. The privacy is for calls like
welfare checks, ambulance patients having their name and dob and
health issues broadcast in the clear. That the burglar alarm at 123
main St is the 4th false alarm this week, etc.

You may believe in anarchy and rebellion... Your choice, don't be
surprised if you lose. I am absolutely against these Covid lockdown
and I am a high risk candidate. I believe those lockdown orders are
unconstitutional. There are legal ways to get those orders removed and
never allowed to return. Protests.. Fine.... Gunshots.. Nope.

Don


On May 14, 2020 4:42:46 PM "Joe M." <mch@nb.net> wrote:

This makes perfect sense.

"Gee - there was a burglar in my neighborhood last week - I
should get in my time machine and go back and lock my doors"

I won't even address the "nominal fee" for
information related to your own safety.

The more encryption spreads, the more armed citizens there will be.
I've seen it happen in areas near me. It's too bad the number of
untrained will rise, but hey - as long as it's more safe, right?

Sorry, but criminals have no privacy
rights that supersede my safety rights.

In fact, one could argue that protecting their
privacy encourages more criminal activity.
(or was that the intent all along?)

We may as well just replace the news with
game shows due to privacy concerns.

Joe M.

On 5/14/2020 6:30 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption. I have
been
listening to police calls since the early 60's. I was a Denver Police
officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I
agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.
Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are
programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main
dispatch channel. And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee)
unencrypted audio from past events.



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@comcast.net> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure
criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal
day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels,
swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@probate.com
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who
want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption
wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

K1DJG

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Joe M.
 

Ambulances never give the name of the patient over the air. It does not change the treatment they require. That is all that is needed to be withheld to comply with HIPAA. Simply not saying the same does not require encryption.

Welfare checks? A call for a neighbor who fell went out a few months back. I went to help her because I know her (and didn't think to look out the window to see if she was on the ground - oddly enough). I helped her get up on her own before the first responders got there (I merely provided the support for her to get on her feet on her own). The FD was not called (Alpha call), so no notification that way. I only heard it on the police channel notice.

EMS was able to respond to other calls that were more directly life-threatening.

Which is more important? Privacy or help?
Her privacy or someone else's life?

On another call, the PD put out a fire in an apartment using extinguishers. Oddly, dispatch didn't feel the need to relay this information to the FD so they could slow the response. We only knew due to the absence of encryption and relays from responders who heard that direct.

Encryption is the mortal enemy of interoperability since it locks out the ability to monitor - even for those who need to know.

Joe M.

On 5/14/2020 7:35 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
Joe,

The privacy isn't for the criminal. The privacy is for calls like
welfare checks, ambulance patients having their name and dob and health
issues broadcast in the clear. That the burglar alarm at 123 main St is
the 4th false alarm this week, etc.

You may believe in anarchy and rebellion... Your choice, don't be
surprised if you lose. I am absolutely against these Covid lockdown
and I am a high risk candidate. I believe those lockdown orders are
unconstitutional. There are legal ways to get those orders removed and
never allowed to return. Protests.. Fine.... Gunshots.. Nope.

Don


On May 14, 2020 4:42:46 PM "Joe M." <mch@nb.net> wrote:

This makes perfect sense.

"Gee - there was a burglar in my neighborhood last week - I
should get in my time machine and go back and lock my doors"

I won't even address the "nominal fee" for
information related to your own safety.

The more encryption spreads, the more armed citizens there will be.
I've seen it happen in areas near me. It's too bad the number of
untrained will rise, but hey - as long as it's more safe, right?

Sorry, but criminals have no privacy
rights that supersede my safety rights.

In fact, one could argue that protecting their
privacy encourages more criminal activity.
(or was that the intent all along?)

We may as well just replace the news with
game shows due to privacy concerns.

Joe M.

On 5/14/2020 6:30 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption. I have been
listening to police calls since the early 60's. I was a Denver Police
officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I
agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.
Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are
programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main
dispatch channel. And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee)
unencrypted audio from past events.



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@comcast.net> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure
criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal
day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels,
swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


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-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@probate.com
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who
want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption
wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

K1DJG

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Rick NK7I
 

An ambush is just as easily set up without a scanner, the perp just phones in a fake call and responds as intended when they arrive.  Encryption won't change that.  Wood chippers are the cure, zero recidivism.

And dispatchs are to a location, not the 'Doe house' (even if they are "Frequent Flyers" as we used to call such events).  What you might hear is the moans and head shakes of "Oh, THEM again" from responders.

HIPPA demands that all radio traffic be phrased as "Patient one, a xx year old female with (****) medical history; presenting a complaint of ..." which is NOT to include ANY identifier to a particular patient.  That the patient may be known by others (responders, neighbors) is not protected by the law.

The areas I worked most often were rural and limited resources in real time.  There was (likely still is) a 'local only' network I never got hooked into (but relied on) where the word was passed quickly around.  Most of the time it was in my favor (tree down across the road, chain saws would magically appear, they get firewood, I got the road open <snort>)...  One of my worries on the job was a school bus rollover with injuries; I didn't want 30-40 parents hovering or interfering with the call, it would have slowed operations down BIG TIME.  Encryption wouldn't have changed that.

Then there are the #*%^#!! reporters getting underfoot...  ;-)

Still I believe that the public deserves to know the raw data, as it happens.  Knowing folks are listening has cleaned up the language quite a bit too...  :-D

Rick

On 5/14/2020 5:27 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
Rick,

Then you know that no option is perfect.  You know there are stories like yours where hearing a clear channel dispatch helped you assist.

But I bet you also know about ambush setups by listening to dispatch and one of the cops arrives and is shot.  You've heard of gawker blocks on a tactical situation.  Etc.

I have certainly lived through both types of situations.

John and Jane Doe are having a family fight, John beats the **** outta Jane.  Cops get there and send Jane via ambulance to hospital... Paramedic calls in.. Bringing in xyz diabetic female, BP x/y, 45yrs old, knife wounds in the chest and neck...

Anyone listening now knows who they are talking about and her private medical records... In violation of HIPPA

Anyway.. I have had my say... I'll shut up now.

Don


On May 14, 2020 6:03:57 PM "Rick Bates, NK7I" <Rick.NK7I@gmail.com> wrote:

I too have been in the business of public safety for a career.

Hearing welfare checks can be useful, there is no loss of privacy (but
it might also be your neighbor you assumed was away), just as there
isn't when a burglary is reported.  HIPPA and other laws protect the
privacy of folks during a medical aid call too, no worry there unless
the responders are violating the law.  ALL of this is useful because it
give one a sense of the neighborhood (might be yours, might be across
town) and makes one more aware (a trend growing in your neighborhood?),
potentially more alert thereby safer.

I see the need for encryption in certain cases but if it's REALLY
needing security, use a cell phone or land line (they still exist).  But
for the rest (non-SWAT, undercover), there isn't a need and it does
cause one to wonder what is being hidden.  A common law abiding citizen
shouldn't have to jump through hoops to know they are/were at risk in or
near their own home when real time information (raw data) is available.

I live 30 miles away from two state lines (and a country border), each
state having P25 networks, one is encrypted.  A recent vehicle chase
from WA crossed into ID (encrypted, lack of common communications except
via dispatchers) then into MT...  that encryption, even with common
systems (except frequency bands) caused some serious lag time in
sit-reps.  There is no intertie, no back door and it would cost the
public a bleeding fortune to have each patrol car with 460, 700 and 800
MHz trunked radios (and no common high band channels either between
patrol units).  Yes, those are two issues but they couldn't even use
their scanners once across the state line to get rapid updates (the
vehicle crashed, just into MT, the road is gnarly at speed).

Further, now that I'm retired, clear channel is useful when traveling so
I can hear of the semi that flipped 40 miles ahead or forest fire road
closure; which allows me to re-route or stop for a meal or the night
while it clears.  That make me part of the traffic solution, not one of
the vehicles waiting backed up for hours.

In one instance, a medical aid call came in at a National park I was
visiting.  It had immediate life threats and the closest unit was 25
minutes away and I was a mile away.  Still being certified, I jumped in,
assisted successfully and slipped out when the responders arrived to
take over.  Now if that has also been encrypted... the coroner was 4-5
hours away and it would have been a LONG night for many.

Rick NK7I
North Idaho


On 5/14/2020 4:35 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
Joe,

The privacy isn't for the criminal.   The privacy is for calls like
welfare checks, ambulance patients having their name and dob and
health issues broadcast in the clear.  That the burglar alarm at 123
main St is the 4th false alarm this week, etc.

You may believe in anarchy and rebellion... Your choice, don't be
surprised if you lose.   I am absolutely against these Covid lockdown
and I am a high risk candidate.  I believe those lockdown orders are
unconstitutional. There are legal ways to get those orders removed and
never allowed to return.    Protests.. Fine.... Gunshots.. Nope.

Don


On May 14, 2020 4:42:46 PM "Joe M." <mch@nb.net> wrote:

This makes perfect sense.

"Gee - there was a burglar in my neighborhood last week - I
should get in my time machine and go back and lock my doors"

I won't even address the "nominal fee" for
information related to your own safety.

The more encryption spreads, the more armed citizens there will be.
I've seen it happen in areas near me. It's too bad the number of
untrained will rise, but hey - as long as it's more safe, right?

Sorry, but criminals have no privacy
rights that supersede my safety rights.

In fact, one could argue that protecting their
privacy encourages more criminal activity.
(or was that the intent all along?)

We may as well just replace the news with
game shows due to privacy concerns.

Joe M.

On 5/14/2020 6:30 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
There are privacy issues that are addressed via encryption.  I have
been
listening to police calls since the early 60's.  I was a Denver Police
officer for 26 years, retired in 1997.

I understand the desire to have dispatch channels in the clear, but I
agree with the need for encryption even on the main dispatch channel.
Authentic news media have always been able to buy radios that are
programed by the safety radio engineers that can decrypt the main
dispatch channel.   And pretty much anyone can get (for a nominal fee)
unencrypted audio from past events.



On May 14, 2020 4:05:33 PM "jeff" <jeffm1977@comcast.net> wrote:

I still blame the scanner apps on the phones and live feeds. I'm sure
criminals love scanner apps. I'm all for encryption, but the normal
day to day operations should not be encrypted. Only tac channels,
swat, drug enforcement, and other sensitive stuff should be encrypted.


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: harvey@probate.com
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: 2020-05-14 5:08:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] Encryption

As much as the encryption is hurting us as law abiding citizens who
want to hear what is going on, if it weren’t for criminals, encryption
wouldn’t be necessary. They should share blame also.

K1DJG

<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>

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Rick NK7I
 

Ah that glorious day when the cop realizes the dream of being a firefighter!

<snicker-snort>

Rick

On 5/14/2020 5:46 PM, Joe M. wrote:

On another call, the PD put out a fire in an apartment using extinguishers.


Joe M.
 

We had two of those near me.
The PD was encrypted.
I guess that didn't work.

So, Don, I guess the next time a Domestic call happens they should lock down everyone in the neighborhood so they don't see the ambulance in front of the neighbor's house. After all this is a privacy issue, right?

Fact is neighbors will always know details about other neighbors despite "privacy laws". If I had a medical condition, I would WANT my neighbors to know so they can keep an eye out.

My dad once found a neighbor in their driveway. He stopped to help. Maybe he should not have out of privacy concerns?

Those who give up freedom for privacy deserve neither.
(paraphrasing Ben Franklin)

Joe M.

On 5/14/2020 8:27 PM, Don Curtis wrote:

But I bet you also know about ambush setups by listening to dispatch and
one of the cops arrives and is shot.

Anyone listening now knows who they are talking about and her private
medical records... In violation of HIPPA


Joe Polcari
 

That’s right.


On May 14, 2020, at 6:50 PM, AC2FV <xtraham@...> wrote:

There’s no such thing as secret police until the police start keeping secrets.

Dispatch should be unencrypted, tactical channels should be encrypted. Easy to do in today’s digital world.

PD and Emcomm all say keep alert, watch out for…, be prepared… and then they go silent on dispatch.



Scott Conover 
Email: xtraham@...

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