Topics

crypto comm


William Barrett, KW1B
 


I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


jim myers
 

We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


William Barrett, KW1B
 


"Secret Squirrels"
 
 
   73
KW1B

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of jim myers
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 21:48
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


Shawn Benoit
 


That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption. 

Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police. 

The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:

-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)
-NCIC (CJIS protected)
-Key holder info 
-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)
-Officer locations/calls
-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)
-Medical info/conditions

This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.

Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something. 


On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:
We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


ihc53
 

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 


You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too. 

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture. 

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a desire.  Public safety is a government function and the "government" is elected by you and represents the citizens.  The voting public has 100% control of public agencies. 

Nuff said. 

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Jerry Strahan
 

Here is a stupid chief...went to DMR,going to wait until people buy the expensive scanners , then encrypt. 
Minden  Louisiana. 
Jerry 


On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 12:16 PM, Don Curtis
<Don.Curtis@...> wrote:

You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too. 

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture. 

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a desire.  Public safety is a government function and the "government" is elected by you and represents the citizens.  The voting public has 100% control of public agencies. 

Nuff said. 

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association (TARRA)
 

"government" is
> elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has 100%
> control of public agencies.
Wow, guess we know what you are smoking down there in Colorado!

Mick

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Curtis
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:16:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

>
> You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
> unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.
>
> 26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there
> were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw
> motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture.
>
> Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a
> desire. Public safety is a government function and the "government" is
> elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has 100%
> control of public agencies.
>
> Nuff said.
>
>
> On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" wrote:
> > 99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted. And you
> > are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will
> > smack of "secret police."
> >
> > With very few exceptions, everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.
> >
> > Sent from my Galaxy Tab A
> >
> > -------- Original message --------
> > From: "William Barrett, KW1B"
> > Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > To: main@Uniden.groups.io
> > Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm
> >
> > I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
> > at a certain level. Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
> > while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
> > secrecy.
> >
> > In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
> > well-known to police and military communications people. Simply
> > encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
> > Not something most people would favor.
> >
> > Routine ops need to be in the clear.
> >
> > 73
> > bb
> > NC
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of
> > Shawn Benoit
> > Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
> > To: main@uniden.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap
> >
> >
> > I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change
> > that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. wrote:
> > Is that because crime only happens at the
> > police station and doesn't affect communities?
> >
> > Do you not care that you will be late to work because
> > there is an accident blocking your normal route?
> >
> > Do you not care that you will be ADDING
> > to the problem (traffic) in the above case?
> >
> > Are you fine with going to the mall when
> > there is an active shooter in the area?
> >
> > If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
> > are you OK letting your kids go out to play?
> >
> > A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
> > Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
> > Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.
> >
> > Joe M.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--


Donald Lambert <banjodhl@...>
 

:-))

The levity was needed for this thread....

don/k0kuz

ZUT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thought for the week:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Without CW it's just CB
-Jess-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Any and all communications herein are the sole property of the email sender and originator. Any electronic intercept of this communication constitutes a violation of 50 U.S.C. § 1861(b)(2) of The Patriot Act. The use of this information in informal or formal proceedings, charges, investigations or indictments is strictly prohibited and rendered null and void if obtained without a warrant."
---------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------


On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 9:57:49 AM PST, William Barrett, KW1B <wbarrett@...> wrote:


"Secret Squirrels"
 
 
   73
KW1B
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of jim myers
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 21:48
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


Donald Lambert <banjodhl@...>
 

Shawn;

Well said.

don/k0kuz

ZUT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thought for the week:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Without CW it's just CB
-Jess-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Any and all communications herein are the sole property of the email sender and originator. Any electronic intercept of this communication constitutes a violation of 50 U.S.C. § 1861(b)(2) of The Patriot Act. The use of this information in informal or formal proceedings, charges, investigations or indictments is strictly prohibited and rendered null and void if obtained without a warrant."
---------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------


On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 9:58:38 AM PST, Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...> wrote:



That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption. 

Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police. 

The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:

-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)
-NCIC (CJIS protected)
-Key holder info 
-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)
-Officer locations/calls
-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)
-Medical info/conditions

This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.

Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:
We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


Marty Toomajian
 

Rather than think I know better than what these agencies need,  I thank my lucky stars that I could listen to some great communications in the 80's just by programming a Bearcat or a Radio Shack Pro-200X.

I believe I lived through a unique time when crystals weren't needed and Tom Kneitel published frequencies that are today encrypted 99+% of the time. 

It was fun.  I was fortunate.  I'm thankful and I've moved on to other hobbies. 

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 1:07 PM ihc53 <ihc53@...> wrote:
99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Joe M.
 

That's where brains come in. You never plan raids over the air. That should be done in the briefing room.

What you seem to forget is that the NEIGHBORS of those criminals can monitor, too, and provide valuable tips. Then the criminals go "bye bye" to a place where they cannot monitor. Encryption reduces the chances of catching them and that means more crime. Who wants that?

Again, it's the "we can do everything ourselves" mentality that prevails here. Or it might be the "don't make more work for us" mentality in some cases. Because prosecutions require a lot of paperwork.

Joe M.

On 11/10/2019 1:16 PM, Don Curtis wrote:

You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.


Joe M.
 

Let's please refrain from the personal innuendo.

List Moderator

On 11/10/2019 1:24 PM, Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association (TARRA) wrote:
"government" is
elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has 100%
control of public agencies.
Wow, guess we know what you are smoking down there in Colorado!

Mick

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Curtis
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:16:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

>
> You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
> unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.
>
> 26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there
> were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw
> motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture.
>
> Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a
> desire. Public safety is a government function and the "government" is
> elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has 100%
> control of public agencies.
>
> Nuff said.


Jim Walls
 

Here is an interesting option for agencies that are encrypted.  As I have said elsewhere, I run a regional P-25 trunked system for a living.  We have dozens of law enforcement agencies on the system. Some are fully encrypted, some are fully clear, and some are a mixture.

One agency that is full time encrypted has an interesting solution, that we have encouraged others to look into.  Their dispatch channel is full time encrypted, but they are streaming it to Broadcastify, but with about a 15 minute delay.  This removed any tactical advantage from the bad guys, but still gives the public and news media access to the channel.  Dispatch has a control that can dump the 15 minute buffer in the event that there is something that REALLY shouldn't go out over the air, but last I was aware of, they have never needed to push the button.  This feed is only for dispatch - the tactical channels are not fed.  Works quite well.

For the public, this can work better than a scanner.  Here's the scenario.  You are sitting at home and hear a bunch of sirens down the street.  You turn on a scanner and spend the next quite a while trying to figure out what is going on and where it is because you did not hear the initial dispatch.  With the delayed online feed, in the same scenario, you turn on the app on your phone, and a few minutes later you hear the initial dispatch.  Now you know what is happening and where.

--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
jim@...
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395


Pat Hines
 

As a long time radio op, and Extra licensee on the amateur bands, I strongly disagree.  First, most criminals have no idea how to operate one of the complex scanners available today.  Second, with the amount of money the drug cartels generate, buying crypto gear and cryto-compliant transceivers are well within their budgets.  Heck, some of them are wealthy enough to buy nuclear weapons should they want them.

Basically, the local cop argument against prohibiting encryptetd cop channels is a non-starter.


Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 

You don't like it, get your city/county/state/federal lawmakers to enact a law prohibiting encryption. 

If enough voters think like you, should be a piece of cake.

Until then, you will have live with it.

Just like I have to live with not being allowed to use amateur radio equipment without a license even though the airwaves belong to the public. 



don robinson
 

Our officers go to their cell phones when things get so risky.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 09:58:41 AM PST, Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...> wrote:



That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption. 

Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police. 

The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:

-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)
-NCIC (CJIS protected)
-Key holder info 
-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)
-Officer locations/calls
-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)
-Medical info/conditions

This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.

Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:
We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


don robinson
 

Not "nuff said"; read the recent news about police offices- hundreds of them- convicted of terrible crimes, including murder, were still allowed to remain on the force and that was kept from the public. If you don't want to know right from wrong, that supports wrong and it just gets worse.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 10:16:51 AM PST, Don Curtis <don.curtis@...> wrote:



You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too. 

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture. 

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a desire.  Public safety is a government function and the "government" is elected by you and represents the citizens.  The voting public has 100% control of public agencies. 

Nuff said. 

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


don robinson
 

Did you know that Tom Knietel was the son of Seymour Kneitel, and Seymour Kneitel was the animator of "Casper the Friendly Ghost"?   At this stage of the game, my old scanners are friendly ghosts, and maybe my 396 will be as well if encryption takes over.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 11:37:51 AM PST, Marty Toomajian <mtoomaj@...> wrote:


Rather than think I know better than what these agencies need,  I thank my lucky stars that I could listen to some great communications in the 80's just by programming a Bearcat or a Radio Shack Pro-200X.

I believe I lived through a unique time when crystals weren't needed and Tom Kneitel published frequencies that are today encrypted 99+% of the time. 

It was fun.  I was fortunate.  I'm thankful and I've moved on to other hobbies. 

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 1:07 PM ihc53 <ihc53@...> wrote:
99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Joe M.
 

I would agree if you could get a license for the encryption key.

Otherwise, apples and racecars.

Most voters are not technical enough to know the details and will blindly follow the "we need this for your safety" spin by elected leaders. Many also could care less, and if it doesn't affect them they will not vote for changes.

Joe M.

On 11/10/2019 5:56 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
You don't like it, get your city/county/state/federal lawmakers to enact
a law prohibiting encryption.

If enough voters think like you, should be a piece of cake.

Until then, you will have live with it.

Just like I have to live with not being allowed to use amateur radio
equipment without a license even though the airwaves belong to the public.



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