I have been a radio hobbyist since the 1970’s. Started listening to scanners back in the old crystal days. I have seen the introduction of voice inversion systems followed by the Motorola DVP systems on the local police systems. Our local police service went full time encryption (DES-OFB and AES256) back in 2012.  When that happened, the media (and scanner hobbyists) switched to monitoring the EMS and Fire comms and learned of all the major police events that way.

 

In 2017, Police and Fire went full time encrypted. As the comms system admin for all three services, we noticed a few very important benefits.

1. Media did not show up on scene right away allowing first responders to do their jobs without having to deal with the media and the public in those critical first moments.
2. Speculative reporting was reduced. By this I mean where reporters overhear tidbits of information and fill in the rest with creative writing.

 

No one has “the right” to eavesdrop on another person’s or parties communications. For those that feel somehow that it is their duty to monitor the local law enforcement comms because they feel that will prevent some form of police corruption, Grab a brain.  Have you ever heard anything on your local comms that could even suggest this was going to happen?  If some officer was going to do something they shouldn’t, they are not going to disclose or discuss this on a radio channel that is most likely recorded.

 

If you were that paranoid, I would also think you would be in favor of secure comms.  Do you want all your neighbors hearing that the local police, fire or ems were dispatched to your home.  Oh what would the neighbors think? The gossip that could be started!

 

Secure comms protect everyone’s rights to privacy. The first responders and the general public whom they are serving. Does the scanning public need to know that you had a grease fire on your stove? Do they need to know that you fell off a ladder and broke your leg?  Do they need to know that a relative in your home is stressed out, and having anxiety issues?   Of course the scanning public doesn’t have a right to know these things.

 

As much as I have enjoyed monitoring, it is not my right to hear anything. I miss the comms and knowing what is going on around town. However I also realize that my fellow citizens have a right to their privacy as well.

 

Secure comms are here, face it, accept it and move on.

 

 

Ed

On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:57 AM, Rich <rk911forums@...> wrote:

ain't gonna happen.  illegal for one thing.  

Rich via iPad

On Nov 9, 2019, at 19:11, huntwildturkey8254 via Groups.Io <huntwildturkey8254@...> wrote:

Won’t be long, and scanner companies will be making encrypted radio scanners.

BJN

On Nov 9, 2019, at 19:02, KA9QJG <KA9QJG@...> wrote:



Robert  . That was  very well said  I have  been the Communications over 50 yrs   US Navy , Law Enforcement , 911 Dispatcher  and Ham Radio,   I live in N/W Indiana  near Chicago and had to buy tie expensive Uniden SDS-100  Just to hear My local PD/FD  and some is Encrypted ,And I have worked  in Law Enforcement  Yes in some cases it is needed,   But not for general  Communications .. We actually have a few FB groups that are  listen and posting Live incidents with Audio and Video and Pictures  , This is very dangerous and illegal . Also if you  have enough money and want a Motorola APX  radio that the PD use  just  go to E bay and other places  some will even program the radios for add  More money and Yes you can get the Encryption too . Just do not get caught Even if the  Scanners  companies  would make  decoders it is still illegal for us to Monitor  unless We are Authorized   by the System administrator   of any system

 

Happy Scanning while We can

 

Don KA9QJG

 

Ps  in Working Law Enforcement and a 911  Communications Dispatcher Many yrs ago  I know of many cases where a Scanner listener have called and helped out many times , one time when We has a Sgt call for help His battery was  almost dead and the Dispatcher  did not hear him,  But a scanner listener a block away did and called the dispatcher and  was able to get him the help he needed  saving his life and  catching the alleged  bad guys ,of course this was the good ol analog days With the New Digital you either  hear it or you don’t  when the battery gets weak…

 

From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert A Klamp
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 4:42 PM
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

 

As intriguing as everyone's opinion on encryption is here that fact of the matter. Ever since people started running streaming media of real time police traffic enc use has skyrocketed. Broadcastify and Radio Reference are your two biggest problem in the scanner world. I remember having to go buy a book of all the local frequencies, having to know how to program them into your scanner or radio, then having the know how to distinguish what was being used for what. You had to do it all your self or instead of buying the book you could throw on the attenuator on your radio and drive around your area doing frequency searches and seeing what hits you got. The big problem with everything being one trunked system is everything is repeated there is no more switch to 5 for simplex ops really happening anymore. Well there is but not in very many places (at least where I live) I remember when the biggest most populated county in my listening area was VHF and all the tactical channels were vhf simplex. They have since encrypted everything with AES256 on a county wide trunked systems with a few different sites and multiple towers for each site. The days of just throwing on your scanner and hearing what's going on are pretty dead. Between CAD systems, encryption, cell phones, cellular PTT like zello or worse yet first net, and many other factors are becoming more and more popular. With the UHF T Band give/take back police have less room in a frequency spectrum that was already overcrowded but worked well for big cities it penetrated buildings and other nuisances well and didn't really propagate to much so there was much bleed over from other places half the country away like low band and sometimes vhf have problems with. Then you have broadcastify just spilling public safety radio traffic out for anybody who want it's like oil from a tanker crash. Add that with almost every frequency in use around the country being reported and published on radio reference for any old schmuck to go look up and you start to see the problem. To much info is readily available to the public. When my small area radio monitoring group decided to stop keeping our own records of data in our area and publish it all on radio reference because the owner of that site hasn't made enough money yet exploiting are once exuberant and lively hobby I saw the end sneaking up fast. But it's not my radio clubs fault i blame radio reference and broadcastify were a criminal can tune in clock patrol traffic and anything else they may need to time and commit crimes with little to no resistance from public safety already knowing what to expect. Or have a lookout listening to there it on there smart phone when he used to have to have some kind of skill with radios to listen to what he can now here with a click of a mouse or worse yet an app on his smart phone. And now we have even dumbed down the hobby further by putting the entire radio reference database in the scanner for so all you have to do is download the latest update and put in your zip code and pop everything from police to public safety are preloaded with the latest information from the biggest threat to our hobby. But wait in case you are so radio incompetent that you don't even know how to lock out unwanted channels don't worry you can just select the correct service tags to hear what you want if your a criminal just lock out all but police services if your a fire bug just lock out all but fire. These problems are not going away they are just getting worse as we enable more and more people who didn't have access to these comms easy access everything they could want and use to the disadvantage of the public and public safety. So of course police will encrypt. Fire will encrypt. And even ems will encrypt there is to much much information available that once upon a time was not. The part of this that makes me just sick is there is one man behind it who hands out little freebies to those that help him destroy our hobby while he take the big payday from uniden,Whistler, and users of both his websites. Stop enabling him! And the last thing I will bring up is the communications act of or the communications privacy act of 1986 I believe should cover live streaming  but for some reason that is loop hole. Make streaming illegal and keep what you hear to yourself this used to be common sense but now we have threads on radiorefernce with titles funniest thing heard one scanner, best call heard on a scanner, active emergency ops on your scanner and so on and so forth. When you ask yourself why is my area going encrypted and why is my 700 dollar scanner now a paper weight just do a search of what info is readily available for your area and what people have posted about what they are hearing in your area things should become a little more clear at that point. I have a lot more to say but I will stop there for more information on the legalities of disclosing what I'd heard on your scanner please see the following link.

 

 

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2511

 

 

And I know I have upset some people but these are just my thoughts and opinions your allowed to have yours please allow me to have mine,

 

Thank you,

Bob

 

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...>

Date: 11/9/19 14:45 (GMT-06:00)

To: main@uniden.groups.io

Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

 

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.

On 11/9/2019 12:54 PM, Shawn Benoit wrote:
> Sure, you can get access to police radio recordings by a FOI request (to
> be nosy). No one except the police need real-time access to encrypted
> communications. Problem solved.

From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark French
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 21:43
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Toomajian
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 14:00
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:26 PM, Rich <rk911forums@...> wrote:

i spent nearly 30-yrs working in and managing a large consolidated 9-1-1 center in suburban chicago.  can't recall any incidents in which the bad guys used a scanner to evade police.  the criminals aren't that smart.  

tactical, warrant service, fugitive apprehension and the like should absolutely be encrypted 24/7.  the rest, not so much. 

Rich via iPad

On Nov 10, 2019, at 17:58, Walter C. Powis, Sr <wcpowissr@...> wrote:

Just a personal thought. After spending many years in communications, security and such, I am convinced that there are some things that the general public has absolutely no need to know! Just my 2 cents!!

W3WP

 

From: don robinson via Groups.Io

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 6:10 PM

To: main@Uniden.groups.io

Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

Our officers go to their cell phones when things get so risky.

 

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 09:58:41 AM PST, Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...> wrote:

 

 

 

That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption.

 

Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police.

 

The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:

 

-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)

-NCIC (CJIS protected)

-Key holder info

-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)

-Officer locations/calls

-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)

-Medical info/conditions

 

This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.

 

Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something.

 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:

We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...

Just a personal thought. After spending many years in communications, security and such, I am convinced that there are some things that the general public has absolutely no need to know! Just my 2 cents!!

W3WP

 

From: don robinson via Groups.Io

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 6:10 PM

To: main@Uniden.groups.io

Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

Our officers go to their cell phones when things get so risky.

 

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 09:58:41 AM PST, Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...> wrote:

 

 

 

That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption.

 

Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police.

 

The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:

 

-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)

-NCIC (CJIS protected)

-Key holder info

-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)

-Officer locations/calls

-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)

-Medical info/conditions

 

This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.

 

Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something.

 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:

We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...

On Nov 10, 2019, at 19:51, Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:

Except that many of them WERE caught by the public complaining
about their actions, and many of those were heard via scanners.

Just sayin'.

Agreed there only a few bad apples by percentage comparison, but
hiding actions is going to do nothing but increase those numbers.

Only criminals should fear the sunlight.

Joe M.

On 11/10/2019 6:44 PM, Don Curtis wrote:

Of course there are bad cops, and I guarantee you won't catch them by
listening to dispatch.

There's bad people in every group. I would bet as a percentage, the
police are way towards the bottom compared to other groups.

There are close to 1 million sworn police officers in the US. 1% of 1
million is 10,000 and I seriously doubt there are 10,000 law breaking
cops out there.

Just saying...

On November 10, 2019 4:17:44 PM "don robinson via Groups.Io"
<don_551@...> wrote:

Not "nuff said"; read the recent news about police offices- hundreds
of them- convicted of terrible crimes, including murder, were still
allowed to remain on the force and that was kept from the public. If
you don't want to know right from wrong, that supports wrong and it
just gets worse.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 10:16:51 AM PST, Don Curtis
<don.curtis@...> wrote:



You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent,
there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and
outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture.

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just
a desire. Public safety is a government function and the "government"
is elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has
100% control of public agencies.

Nuff said.

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.
And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the
shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions, everything should be open to the taxpayers
to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to
supervise
at a certain level. Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy.
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people. Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to *Secret Police Mindset.*
Not something most people would favor.
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
73
bb
NC

-----Original Message-----
*From:* main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]*On
Behalf Of *Shawn Benoit
*Sent:* Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
*To:* main@uniden.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing
will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen.

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...
<mailto:mch@...>> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to
know it.

Joe M.

<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
Virus-free. www.avg.com
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>


<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Nov 10, 2019, at 7:42 PM, Jim Walls <jim@...> wrote:



On 11/10/2019 15:29, don robinson via Groups.Io wrote:

I wish you would have talked to my city before they dumped their Johnson Edacs radios for P25 Motorola equipment, spending $20 million to start, then another $20 million to make the new radios finally work.

EDACS was a proprietary format of GE (later acquired by Ericsson then Harris) (not Johnson).  It became unsupported shortly after Harris bought the company.  It was old, unsupported, and not compatible with anybody else.  It needed to go.  By going with P-25, your city had the ability to go with any one of several manufacturers.  Because the old field radios were EDACS radios, they all had to be replaced in order to use the new open standard.  A forklift replacement of almost any system (computers, radio, trash truck, whatever) costs money - that's reality.

-- 
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
jim@...
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395



Not "nuff said"; read the recent news about police offices- hundreds of them- convicted of terrible crimes, including murder, were still allowed to remain on the force and that was kept from the public. If you don't want to know right from wrong, that supports wrong and it just gets worse.

Of course there are bad cops, and I guarantee you won't catch them by
listening to dispatch.

There's bad people in every group. I would bet as a percentage, the
police are way towards the bottom compared to other groups.

There are close to 1 million sworn police officers in the US. 1% of 1
million is 10,000 and I seriously doubt there are 10,000 law breaking
cops out there.

Just saying...

On November 10, 2019 4:17:44 PM "don robinson via Groups.Io"
<don_551@...> wrote:

Not "nuff said"; read the recent news about police offices- hundreds
of them- convicted of terrible crimes, including murder, were still
allowed to remain on the force and that was kept from the public. If
you don't want to know right from wrong, that supports wrong and it
just gets worse.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 10:16:51 AM PST, Don Curtis
<don.curtis@...> wrote:



You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent,
there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and
outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture.

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just
a desire. Public safety is a government function and the "government"
is elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has
100% control of public agencies.

Nuff said.

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.
And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the
shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions, everything should be open to the taxpayers
to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to
supervise
at a certain level. Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy.
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people. Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to *Secret Police Mindset.*
Not something most people would favor.
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
73
bb
NC

-----Original Message-----
*From:* main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]*On
Behalf Of *Shawn Benoit
*Sent:* Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
*To:* main@uniden.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing
will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen.

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...
<mailto:mch@...>> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to
know it.

Joe M.

<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
Virus-free. www.avg.com
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>


<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

I would agree if you could get a license for the encryption key.

Otherwise, apples and racecars.

Most voters are not technical enough to know the details and will
blindly follow the "we need this for your safety" spin by elected
leaders. Many also could care less, and if it doesn't affect them they
will not vote for changes.

Joe M.

On 11/10/2019 5:56 PM, Don Curtis wrote:

You don't like it, get your city/county/state/federal lawmakers to enact
a law prohibiting encryption.

If enough voters think like you, should be a piece of cake.

Until then, you will have live with it.

Just like I have to live with not being allowed to use amateur radio
equipment without a license even though the airwaves belong to the public.



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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>