Date   

Re: crypto comm

Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 

A big thumbs up. Ed!

Said very well. 

Don

On November 11, 2019 12:24:52 PM "richardson_ed" <ed_richardson@...> wrote:

I have been a radio hobbyist since the 1970’s. Started listening to scanners back in the old crystal days. I have seen the introduction of voice inversion systems followed by the Motorola DVP systems on the local police systems. Our local police service went full time encryption (DES-OFB and AES256) back in 2012.  When that happened, the media (and scanner hobbyists) switched to monitoring the EMS and Fire comms and learned of all the major police events that way.

 

In 2017, Police and Fire went full time encrypted. As the comms system admin for all three services, we noticed a few very important benefits.

  1. Media did not show up on scene right away allowing first responders to do their jobs without having to deal with the media and the public in those critical first moments.
  2. Speculative reporting was reduced. By this I mean where reporters overhear tidbits of information and fill in the rest with creative writing.

 

No one has “the right” to eavesdrop on another person’s or parties communications. For those that feel somehow that it is their duty to monitor the local law enforcement comms because they feel that will prevent some form of police corruption, Grab a brain.  Have you ever heard anything on your local comms that could even suggest this was going to happen?  If some officer was going to do something they shouldn’t, they are not going to disclose or discuss this on a radio channel that is most likely recorded.

 

If you were that paranoid, I would also think you would be in favor of secure comms.  Do you want all your neighbors hearing that the local police, fire or ems were dispatched to your home.  Oh what would the neighbors think? The gossip that could be started!

 

Secure comms protect everyone’s rights to privacy. The first responders and the general public whom they are serving. Does the scanning public need to know that you had a grease fire on your stove? Do they need to know that you fell off a ladder and broke your leg?  Do they need to know that a relative in your home is stressed out, and having anxiety issues?   Of course the scanning public doesn’t have a right to know these things.

 

As much as I have enjoyed monitoring, it is not my right to hear anything. I miss the comms and knowing what is going on around town. However I also realize that my fellow citizens have a right to their privacy as well.

 

Secure comms are here, face it, accept it and move on.

 

 

Ed



Re: crypto comm

murray kellett
 

Agreed.

73, and 88, ve3myr. Murray K, Ottawa.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> on behalf of mmiskottawa <mmisk@...>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 11:52:29 AM
To: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm
 
I feel the same had many good years of listening.
You know, I could listen to anything in those days, and I just listened for enjoyment and my interest in communications.  Didn't divulge anything, did not cause anyone any trouble. Kept it to myself. 
Would never in a million years stream it to the public. That is just shooting oneself in the foot.
Most of what I heard was in the public domain anyway, (court records etc) 
If I was listening in public I used headphones and it looked like I was listening to music. Would try to keep the scanner out of site.
Then when MDT's came into use there was much less private information given out.  Next, in car computers, cellphones, so even less on the radio.

Anyway, I am grateful for those years, not complaining.

Mike

From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> on behalf of Gigu chan <rudebwai@...>
Sent: November 10, 2019 11:53 PM
To: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm
 

Agreed.

 

From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Toomajian
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 14:00
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

Rather than think I know better than what these agencies need,  I thank my lucky stars that I could listen to some great communications in the 80's just by programming a Bearcat or a Radio Shack Pro-200X.

 

I believe I lived through a unique time when crystals weren't needed and Tom Kneitel published frequencies that are today encrypted 99+% of the time. 

 

It was fun.  I was fortunate.  I'm thankful and I've moved on to other hobbies. 

 

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 1:07 PM ihc53 <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

 

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

 

-------- Original message --------

From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>

Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)

Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise

at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,

while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of

secrecy. 

 

In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC

well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply

encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.

Not something most people would favor.

 

Routine ops need to be in the clear.

 

   73

   bb

  NC

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Re: crypto comm

richardson_ed
 

I have been a radio hobbyist since the 1970’s. Started listening to scanners back in the old crystal days. I have seen the introduction of voice inversion systems followed by the Motorola DVP systems on the local police systems. Our local police service went full time encryption (DES-OFB and AES256) back in 2012.  When that happened, the media (and scanner hobbyists) switched to monitoring the EMS and Fire comms and learned of all the major police events that way.

 

In 2017, Police and Fire went full time encrypted. As the comms system admin for all three services, we noticed a few very important benefits.

  1. Media did not show up on scene right away allowing first responders to do their jobs without having to deal with the media and the public in those critical first moments.
  2. Speculative reporting was reduced. By this I mean where reporters overhear tidbits of information and fill in the rest with creative writing.

 

No one has “the right” to eavesdrop on another person’s or parties communications. For those that feel somehow that it is their duty to monitor the local law enforcement comms because they feel that will prevent some form of police corruption, Grab a brain.  Have you ever heard anything on your local comms that could even suggest this was going to happen?  If some officer was going to do something they shouldn’t, they are not going to disclose or discuss this on a radio channel that is most likely recorded.

 

If you were that paranoid, I would also think you would be in favor of secure comms.  Do you want all your neighbors hearing that the local police, fire or ems were dispatched to your home.  Oh what would the neighbors think? The gossip that could be started!

 

Secure comms protect everyone’s rights to privacy. The first responders and the general public whom they are serving. Does the scanning public need to know that you had a grease fire on your stove? Do they need to know that you fell off a ladder and broke your leg?  Do they need to know that a relative in your home is stressed out, and having anxiety issues?   Of course the scanning public doesn’t have a right to know these things.

 

As much as I have enjoyed monitoring, it is not my right to hear anything. I miss the comms and knowing what is going on around town. However I also realize that my fellow citizens have a right to their privacy as well.

 

Secure comms are here, face it, accept it and move on.

 

 

Ed


Re: crypto comm

Donald Lambert <banjodhl@...>
 

Good idea. As my Dear Old Dad would say: "no sense in crying about it until it happens".

HF is a real wonder land of adventure, especially if one has earned a FCC Amateur Radio License.

don/k0kuz

ZUT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thought for the week:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Without CW it's just CB
-Jess-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Any and all communications herein are the sole property of the email sender and originator. Any electronic intercept of this communication constitutes a violation of 50 U.S.C. § 1861(b)(2) of The Patriot Act. The use of this information in informal or formal proceedings, charges, investigations or indictments is strictly prohibited and rendered null and void if obtained without a warrant."
---------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------


On Monday, November 11, 2019, 6:41:27 AM PST, Gigu chan <rudebwai@...> wrote:


  There  was an episode  on “Adam 12”  where the bad guys  used to tune into  Police Comms…  and naturally  the Dukes of hazard…  of course I’m making light of the situation…  when the switch is thrown  here in Suffolk county…  I’ll sell my scanners and find another hobby.Maybe  concentrate  on HF

 

From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark French
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 21:43
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

In Houston back in the 70s and 80s we had several cases of crooks using scanners but they were caught because they didn't' know the lingo and the simplex frequencies being used. This was in the analoge days.before the digital systems came on line. The only complaint I have is the HFD Tac channels being encrypted. I can see the arson and investigations channels being encrypted but the fire scene channels I just don't see the reason for it.


Re: P25 for Cheap

Rick Schafer
 

I think some just don’t understand the whole encryption process 
Most newer systems rekey over the air. Which means a radio has to authenticate with the system , be part of a crypto net to get the correct key. Then be available to get the new key , which can be sent at Will. A scanner will never be able to do this 

Introduction to P25

Call Types and Features

INTRODUCTION TO P25 ENCRYPTION

Topic Progress:   

Encryption in radio communications enables secure communication between parties and is achieved by loading the same key into all radios in a group.

The key is like a secret number or password that must be known in order to decrypt the call. Radios in their group can then talk amongst each other privately, and no outsiders can intercept the communications. Although analog encryption is possible, this typically degrades the audio quality and also results in a reduced coverage area, as stronger RF signals are needed to clearly receive the encrypted calls.

RF Signals

One of the key benefits of P25 Digital Radio over analog radio is the ability to securely encrypt calls without impacting the coverage area.

Enabling P25 encryption is easy. A channel or group is programmed to use encryption and a key is loaded into each radio that uses that group.

Encryption Key

DES uses a 56-bit encryption key and AES uses a 256-bit encryption key. The type of encryption to use depends on the type of information you’re protecting.

AES is a more secure form of encryption, however maintaining the security of that channel is more complicated.

Policies and procedures will need to be put into place to determine who is allowed to access the secure channel. In addition, plans will need to be in place to determine what to do if a radio with the key is lost or stolen. Often this is easily managed by having more than one encryption key.

P25 Encryption - ASK

Tactical teams that require a higher level of security may generate their own encryption keys for specific operations. They can tightly control or manage those radios, and have an up to date knowledge of their current status. A different key is used to encrypt general day-to-day communications and is available to a wide group of people.

Because a large group of people have access to this channel and the key, it is considered to have a low-level security. If the radio is lost, it could take some time for this to be reported and disabled. And replacing the key and all of the radios will be a time consuming, costly exercise and may only happen on rare occasions.

Larger systems may use a feature called over the air rekeying, or OTAR. This allows the updating of the key over the air and dramatically simplifies the process of rekeying the radios in the field. You do not need to physically touch each radio to load the key with a key-loader. However, OTAR still has an administration overhead to track down and follow-up on any problem radios that could not be rekeyed. This is common where multiple shifts, spare radios, and specialist vehicles mean radios are not powered on and active on the radio system all of the time.

EnableProtect Diagram-02

In summary, P25 makes it very easy to add encryption to a radio system. However, it is important to have a good plan in place to ensure communication stays secure and the administrative overhead of managing the radios is in line with the level of security required.

This concludes our introduction to P25. We hope it was helpful for you.

If you’d like to contact us please follow the link below or post in the P25 forums.




On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:57 AM, Rich <rk911forums@...> wrote:

ain't gonna happen.  illegal for one thing.  

Rich via iPad

On Nov 9, 2019, at 19:11, huntwildturkey8254 via Groups.Io <huntwildturkey8254@...> wrote:

Won’t be long, and scanner companies will be making encrypted radio scanners.
BJN


On Nov 9, 2019, at 19:02, KA9QJG <KA9QJG@...> wrote:



Robert  . That was  very well said  I have  been the Communications over 50 yrs   US Navy , Law Enforcement , 911 Dispatcher  and Ham Radio,   I live in N/W Indiana  near Chicago and had to buy tie expensive Uniden SDS-100  Just to hear My local PD/FD  and some is Encrypted ,And I have worked  in Law Enforcement  Yes in some cases it is needed,   But not for general  Communications .. We actually have a few FB groups that are  listen and posting Live incidents with Audio and Video and Pictures  , This is very dangerous and illegal . Also if you  have enough money and want a Motorola APX  radio that the PD use  just  go to E bay and other places  some will even program the radios for add  More money and Yes you can get the Encryption too . Just do not get caught Even if the  Scanners  companies  would make  decoders it is still illegal for us to Monitor  unless We are Authorized   by the System administrator   of any system

 

Happy Scanning while We can

 

Don KA9QJG

 

Ps  in Working Law Enforcement and a 911  Communications Dispatcher Many yrs ago  I know of many cases where a Scanner listener have called and helped out many times , one time when We has a Sgt call for help His battery was  almost dead and the Dispatcher  did not hear him,  But a scanner listener a block away did and called the dispatcher and  was able to get him the help he needed  saving his life and  catching the alleged  bad guys ,of course this was the good ol analog days With the New Digital you either  hear it or you don’t  when the battery gets weak…

 

From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert A Klamp
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 4:42 PM
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

 

As intriguing as everyone's opinion on encryption is here that fact of the matter. Ever since people started running streaming media of real time police traffic enc use has skyrocketed. Broadcastify and Radio Reference are your two biggest problem in the scanner world. I remember having to go buy a book of all the local frequencies, having to know how to program them into your scanner or radio, then having the know how to distinguish what was being used for what. You had to do it all your self or instead of buying the book you could throw on the attenuator on your radio and drive around your area doing frequency searches and seeing what hits you got. The big problem with everything being one trunked system is everything is repeated there is no more switch to 5 for simplex ops really happening anymore. Well there is but not in very many places (at least where I live) I remember when the biggest most populated county in my listening area was VHF and all the tactical channels were vhf simplex. They have since encrypted everything with AES256 on a county wide trunked systems with a few different sites and multiple towers for each site. The days of just throwing on your scanner and hearing what's going on are pretty dead. Between CAD systems, encryption, cell phones, cellular PTT like zello or worse yet first net, and many other factors are becoming more and more popular. With the UHF T Band give/take back police have less room in a frequency spectrum that was already overcrowded but worked well for big cities it penetrated buildings and other nuisances well and didn't really propagate to much so there was much bleed over from other places half the country away like low band and sometimes vhf have problems with. Then you have broadcastify just spilling public safety radio traffic out for anybody who want it's like oil from a tanker crash. Add that with almost every frequency in use around the country being reported and published on radio reference for any old schmuck to go look up and you start to see the problem. To much info is readily available to the public. When my small area radio monitoring group decided to stop keeping our own records of data in our area and publish it all on radio reference because the owner of that site hasn't made enough money yet exploiting are once exuberant and lively hobby I saw the end sneaking up fast. But it's not my radio clubs fault i blame radio reference and broadcastify were a criminal can tune in clock patrol traffic and anything else they may need to time and commit crimes with little to no resistance from public safety already knowing what to expect. Or have a lookout listening to there it on there smart phone when he used to have to have some kind of skill with radios to listen to what he can now here with a click of a mouse or worse yet an app on his smart phone. And now we have even dumbed down the hobby further by putting the entire radio reference database in the scanner for so all you have to do is download the latest update and put in your zip code and pop everything from police to public safety are preloaded with the latest information from the biggest threat to our hobby. But wait in case you are so radio incompetent that you don't even know how to lock out unwanted channels don't worry you can just select the correct service tags to hear what you want if your a criminal just lock out all but police services if your a fire bug just lock out all but fire. These problems are not going away they are just getting worse as we enable more and more people who didn't have access to these comms easy access everything they could want and use to the disadvantage of the public and public safety. So of course police will encrypt. Fire will encrypt. And even ems will encrypt there is to much much information available that once upon a time was not. The part of this that makes me just sick is there is one man behind it who hands out little freebies to those that help him destroy our hobby while he take the big payday from uniden,Whistler, and users of both his websites. Stop enabling him! And the last thing I will bring up is the communications act of or the communications privacy act of 1986 I believe should cover live streaming  but for some reason that is loop hole. Make streaming illegal and keep what you hear to yourself this used to be common sense but now we have threads on radiorefernce with titles funniest thing heard one scanner, best call heard on a scanner, active emergency ops on your scanner and so on and so forth. When you ask yourself why is my area going encrypted and why is my 700 dollar scanner now a paper weight just do a search of what info is readily available for your area and what people have posted about what they are hearing in your area things should become a little more clear at that point. I have a lot more to say but I will stop there for more information on the legalities of disclosing what I'd heard on your scanner please see the following link.

 

 

 

 

 

And I know I have upset some people but these are just my thoughts and opinions your allowed to have yours please allow me to have mine,

 

Thank you,

Bob

 

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...>

Date: 11/9/19 14:45 (GMT-06:00)

Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

 

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.

On 11/9/2019 12:54 PM, Shawn Benoit wrote:
> Sure, you can get access to police radio recordings by a FOI request (to
> be nosy). No one except the police need real-time access to encrypted
> communications. Problem solved.




Re: crypto comm

mmiskottawa
 

I feel the same had many good years of listening.
You know, I could listen to anything in those days, and I just listened for enjoyment and my interest in communications.  Didn't divulge anything, did not cause anyone any trouble. Kept it to myself. 
Would never in a million years stream it to the public. That is just shooting oneself in the foot.
Most of what I heard was in the public domain anyway, (court records etc) 
If I was listening in public I used headphones and it looked like I was listening to music. Would try to keep the scanner out of site.
Then when MDT's came into use there was much less private information given out.  Next, in car computers, cellphones, so even less on the radio.

Anyway, I am grateful for those years, not complaining.

Mike


From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> on behalf of Gigu chan <rudebwai@...>
Sent: November 10, 2019 11:53 PM
To: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm
 

Agreed.

 

From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Toomajian
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 14:00
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

Rather than think I know better than what these agencies need,  I thank my lucky stars that I could listen to some great communications in the 80's just by programming a Bearcat or a Radio Shack Pro-200X.

 

I believe I lived through a unique time when crystals weren't needed and Tom Kneitel published frequencies that are today encrypted 99+% of the time. 

 

It was fun.  I was fortunate.  I'm thankful and I've moved on to other hobbies. 

 

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 1:07 PM ihc53 <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

 

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

 

-------- Original message --------

From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>

Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)

Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise

at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,

while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of

secrecy. 

 

In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC

well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply

encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.

Not something most people would favor.

 

Routine ops need to be in the clear.

 

   73

   bb

  NC

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Re: crypto comm

Gigu chan
 

  There  was an episode  on “Adam 12”  where the bad guys  used to tune into  Police Comms…  and naturally  the Dukes of hazard…  of course I’m making light of the situation…  when the switch is thrown  here in Suffolk county…  I’ll sell my scanners and find another hobby.Maybe  concentrate  on HF

 

From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark French
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 21:43
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

In Houston back in the 70s and 80s we had several cases of crooks using scanners but they were caught because they didn't' know the lingo and the simplex frequencies being used. This was in the analoge days.before the digital systems came on line. The only complaint I have is the HFD Tac channels being encrypted. I can see the arson and investigations channels being encrypted but the fire scene channels I just don't see the reason for it.


Re: crypto comm

Gigu chan
 

Agreed.

 

From: main@Uniden.groups.io <main@Uniden.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Toomajian
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 14:00
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

Rather than think I know better than what these agencies need,  I thank my lucky stars that I could listen to some great communications in the 80's just by programming a Bearcat or a Radio Shack Pro-200X.

 

I believe I lived through a unique time when crystals weren't needed and Tom Kneitel published frequencies that are today encrypted 99+% of the time. 

 

It was fun.  I was fortunate.  I'm thankful and I've moved on to other hobbies. 

 

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 1:07 PM ihc53 <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

 

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

 

-------- Original message --------

From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>

Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)

Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

 

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise

at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,

while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of

secrecy. 

 

In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC

well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply

encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.

Not something most people would favor.

 

Routine ops need to be in the clear.

 

   73

   bb

  NC

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Re: crypto comm

Jeff Kenyon
 

Agreed, some places like in North Dakota, and some places down south go as far as encrypting public works and parks and rec.  I noticed that in a lot of areas around Chicago they’ve encrypted, but not in Chicago itself.  I’ve noticed that a lot of places down south more then anywhere else they do a lot of encryption.  In a couple of weeks I’ll be going to see my mom and she lives in Louden County Tennessee.  The last few years I’ve been down there they have had some encryption, bbut upon checking rr it looks like both police and fire are encrypted now full time?  On the county law talkgroups encryption would come and go but not on fire/EMS.  I’ll let everyone know, but I don’t know what to expect there.  I know that all law enforcement in Knox County is encrypted, and that is the nearest major city she is near.  What are people doing in places that have a lot of encryption who want most of the coms to be in the clear?  There never has been any posts anywhere to indicate any activity that has taken place as far as protesting the encryption.


On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:26 PM, Rich <rk911forums@...> wrote:

i spent nearly 30-yrs working in and managing a large consolidated 9-1-1 center in suburban chicago.  can't recall any incidents in which the bad guys used a scanner to evade police.  the criminals aren't that smart.  

tactical, warrant service, fugitive apprehension and the like should absolutely be encrypted 24/7.  the rest, not so much. 

Rich via iPad

On Nov 10, 2019, at 17:58, Walter C. Powis, Sr <wcpowissr@...> wrote:

Just a personal thought. After spending many years in communications, security and such, I am convinced that there are some things that the general public has absolutely no need to know! Just my 2 cents!!
W3WP
 
From: don robinson via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 6:10 PM
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm
 
Our officers go to their cell phones when things get so risky.
 
On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 09:58:41 AM PST, Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...> wrote:
 
 
 
That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption.
 
Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police.
 
The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:
 
-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)
-NCIC (CJIS protected)
-Key holder info
-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)
-Officer locations/calls
-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)
-Medical info/conditions
 
This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.
 
Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something.
 
On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:
We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


Re: crypto comm

Mark French
 

In Houston back in the 70s and 80s we had several cases of crooks using scanners but they were caught because they didn't' know the lingo and the simplex frequencies being used. This was in the analoge days.before the digital systems came on line. The only complaint I have is the HFD Tac channels being encrypted. I can see the arson and investigations channels being encrypted but the fire scene channels I just don't see the reason for it.


Re: crypto comm

don robinson
 

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 05:57:07 PM PST, Rich <rk911forums@...> wrote:



one or possibly two come to mind. certainly not hundreds. and a police officer convicted of a crime will no longer be a police officer.  

‘73
rich

Not "nuff said"; read the recent news about police offices- hundreds of them- convicted of terrible crimes, including murder, were still allowed to remain on the force and that was kept from the public. If you don't want to know right from wrong, that supports wrong and it just gets worse.


Re: crypto comm

Rich
 

i spent nearly 30-yrs working in and managing a large consolidated 9-1-1 center in suburban chicago.  can't recall any incidents in which the bad guys used a scanner to evade police.  the criminals aren't that smart.  

tactical, warrant service, fugitive apprehension and the like should absolutely be encrypted 24/7.  the rest, not so much. 

Rich via iPad

On Nov 10, 2019, at 17:58, Walter C. Powis, Sr <wcpowissr@...> wrote:

Just a personal thought. After spending many years in communications, security and such, I am convinced that there are some things that the general public has absolutely no need to know! Just my 2 cents!!
W3WP
 
From: don robinson via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 6:10 PM
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm
 
Our officers go to their cell phones when things get so risky.
 
On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 09:58:41 AM PST, Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...> wrote:
 
 
 
That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption.
 
Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police.
 
The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:
 
-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)
-NCIC (CJIS protected)
-Key holder info
-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)
-Officer locations/calls
-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)
-Medical info/conditions
 
This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.
 
Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something.
 
On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:
We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


Re: crypto comm

Rich
 

got a source you can cite, joe?

Rich via iPad

On Nov 10, 2019, at 19:51, Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:

Except that many of them WERE caught by the public complaining
about their actions, and many of those were heard via scanners.

Just sayin'.

Agreed there only a few bad apples by percentage comparison, but
hiding actions is going to do nothing but increase those numbers.

Only criminals should fear the sunlight.

Joe M.

On 11/10/2019 6:44 PM, Don Curtis wrote:

Of course there are bad cops, and I guarantee you won't catch them by
listening to dispatch.

There's bad people in every group. I would bet as a percentage, the
police are way towards the bottom compared to other groups.

There are close to 1 million sworn police officers in the US. 1% of 1
million is 10,000 and I seriously doubt there are 10,000 law breaking
cops out there.

Just saying...

On November 10, 2019 4:17:44 PM "don robinson via Groups.Io"
<don_551@...> wrote:

Not "nuff said"; read the recent news about police offices- hundreds
of them- convicted of terrible crimes, including murder, were still
allowed to remain on the force and that was kept from the public. If
you don't want to know right from wrong, that supports wrong and it
just gets worse.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 10:16:51 AM PST, Don Curtis
<don.curtis@...> wrote:



You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent,
there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and
outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture.

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just
a desire. Public safety is a government function and the "government"
is elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has
100% control of public agencies.

Nuff said.

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.
And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the
shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions, everything should be open to the taxpayers
to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to
supervise
at a certain level. Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy.
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people. Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to *Secret Police Mindset.*
Not something most people would favor.
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
73
bb
NC

-----Original Message-----
*From:* main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]*On
Behalf Of *Shawn Benoit
*Sent:* Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
*To:* main@uniden.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing
will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen.

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...
<mailto:mch@...>> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to
know it.

Joe M.

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Re: P25 for Cheap

Edward Maikranz <maikranze@...>
 

I love our EDACS system and will be sad to see it go, it has been a workhorse, extremely reliable. We have XL-200 portables and will go P25 eventually. 
Ed
KG5UN
Abilene, TX


On Nov 10, 2019, at 7:42 PM, Jim Walls <jim@...> wrote:


On 11/10/2019 15:29, don robinson via Groups.Io wrote:
I wish you would have talked to my city before they dumped their Johnson Edacs radios for P25 Motorola equipment, spending $20 million to start, then another $20 million to make the new radios finally work.


EDACS was a proprietary format of GE (later acquired by Ericsson then Harris) (not Johnson).  It became unsupported shortly after Harris bought the company.  It was old, unsupported, and not compatible with anybody else.  It needed to go.  By going with P-25, your city had the ability to go with any one of several manufacturers.  Because the old field radios were EDACS radios, they all had to be replaced in order to use the new open standard.  A forklift replacement of almost any system (computers, radio, trash truck, whatever) costs money - that's reality.

-- 
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
jim@...
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395


Re: crypto comm

Donald Lambert <banjodhl@...>
 

Don;

Got that right....

don/k0kuz

ZUT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thought for the week:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Without CW it's just CB
-Jess-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Any and all communications herein are the sole property of the email sender and originator. Any electronic intercept of this communication constitutes a violation of 50 U.S.C. § 1861(b)(2) of The Patriot Act. The use of this information in informal or formal proceedings, charges, investigations or indictments is strictly prohibited and rendered null and void if obtained without a warrant."
---------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------


On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 2:56:25 PM PST, Don Curtis <don.curtis@...> wrote:


You don't like it, get your city/county/state/federal lawmakers to enact a law prohibiting encryption. 

If enough voters think like you, should be a piece of cake.

Until then, you will have live with it.

Just like I have to live with not being allowed to use amateur radio equipment without a license even though the airwaves belong to the public. 



Re: crypto comm

Rich
 


one or possibly two come to mind. certainly not hundreds. and a police officer convicted of a crime will no longer be a police officer.  

‘73
rich


Not "nuff said"; read the recent news about police offices- hundreds of them- convicted of terrible crimes, including murder, were still allowed to remain on the force and that was kept from the public. If you don't want to know right from wrong, that supports wrong and it just gets worse.


Re: crypto comm

Walter C. Powis, Sr
 

Just a personal thought. After spending many years in communications, security and such, I am convinced that there are some things that the general public has absolutely no need to know! Just my 2 cents!!
W3WP
 

From: don robinson via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 6:10 PM
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm
 
Our officers go to their cell phones when things get so risky.
 
On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 09:58:41 AM PST, Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...> wrote:
 
 
 
That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption.
 
Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police.
 
The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:
 
-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)
-NCIC (CJIS protected)
-Key holder info
-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)
-Officer locations/calls
-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)
-Medical info/conditions
 
This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.
 
Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something.
 
On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:
We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


Re: crypto comm

Joe M.
 

Except that many of them WERE caught by the public complaining
about their actions, and many of those were heard via scanners.

Just sayin'.

Agreed there only a few bad apples by percentage comparison, but
hiding actions is going to do nothing but increase those numbers.

Only criminals should fear the sunlight.

Joe M.

On 11/10/2019 6:44 PM, Don Curtis wrote:

Of course there are bad cops, and I guarantee you won't catch them by
listening to dispatch.

There's bad people in every group. I would bet as a percentage, the
police are way towards the bottom compared to other groups.

There are close to 1 million sworn police officers in the US. 1% of 1
million is 10,000 and I seriously doubt there are 10,000 law breaking
cops out there.

Just saying...

On November 10, 2019 4:17:44 PM "don robinson via Groups.Io"
<don_551@...> wrote:

Not "nuff said"; read the recent news about police offices- hundreds
of them- convicted of terrible crimes, including murder, were still
allowed to remain on the force and that was kept from the public. If
you don't want to know right from wrong, that supports wrong and it
just gets worse.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 10:16:51 AM PST, Don Curtis
<don.curtis@...> wrote:



You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent,
there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and
outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture.

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just
a desire. Public safety is a government function and the "government"
is elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has
100% control of public agencies.

Nuff said.

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.
And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the
shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions, everything should be open to the taxpayers
to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to
supervise
at a certain level. Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy.
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people. Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to *Secret Police Mindset.*
Not something most people would favor.
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
73
bb
NC

-----Original Message-----
*From:* main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]*On
Behalf Of *Shawn Benoit
*Sent:* Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
*To:* main@uniden.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing
will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen.

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...
<mailto:mch@...>> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to
know it.

Joe M.

<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
Virus-free. www.avg.com
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>


<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>


Re: P25 for Cheap

Jim Walls
 

On 11/10/2019 15:29, don robinson via Groups.Io wrote:
I wish you would have talked to my city before they dumped their Johnson Edacs radios for P25 Motorola equipment, spending $20 million to start, then another $20 million to make the new radios finally work.


EDACS was a proprietary format of GE (later acquired by Ericsson then Harris) (not Johnson).  It became unsupported shortly after Harris bought the company.  It was old, unsupported, and not compatible with anybody else.  It needed to go.  By going with P-25, your city had the ability to go with any one of several manufacturers.  Because the old field radios were EDACS radios, they all had to be replaced in order to use the new open standard.  A forklift replacement of almost any system (computers, radio, trash truck, whatever) costs money - that's reality.

-- 
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
jim@...
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395


Re: crypto comm

Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 

And that's the whole point of getting enough people to agree with you and vote for people/laws that you all agree with.

If it's an important issue for you, write letters to the editor of a local paper trying to educate them. Talk to your representative and see if they are willing to support your position.

That's the system we live in, and how things get done... Or not.

People's choice.

On November 10, 2019 4:36:14 PM "Joe M." <mch@...> wrote:

I would agree if you could get a license for the encryption key.

Otherwise, apples and racecars.

Most voters are not technical enough to know the details and will
blindly follow the "we need this for your safety" spin by elected
leaders. Many also could care less, and if it doesn't affect them they
will not vote for changes.

Joe M.

On 11/10/2019 5:56 PM, Don Curtis wrote:
You don't like it, get your city/county/state/federal lawmakers to enact
a law prohibiting encryption.

If enough voters think like you, should be a piece of cake.

Until then, you will have live with it.

Just like I have to live with not being allowed to use amateur radio
equipment without a license even though the airwaves belong to the public.



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