Date   

Re: crypto comm

don robinson
 

Did you know that Tom Knietel was the son of Seymour Kneitel, and Seymour Kneitel was the animator of "Casper the Friendly Ghost"?   At this stage of the game, my old scanners are friendly ghosts, and maybe my 396 will be as well if encryption takes over.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 11:37:51 AM PST, Marty Toomajian <mtoomaj@...> wrote:


Rather than think I know better than what these agencies need,  I thank my lucky stars that I could listen to some great communications in the 80's just by programming a Bearcat or a Radio Shack Pro-200X.

I believe I lived through a unique time when crystals weren't needed and Tom Kneitel published frequencies that are today encrypted 99+% of the time. 

It was fun.  I was fortunate.  I'm thankful and I've moved on to other hobbies. 

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 1:07 PM ihc53 <ihc53@...> wrote:
99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Re: crypto comm

don robinson
 

Not "nuff said"; read the recent news about police offices- hundreds of them- convicted of terrible crimes, including murder, were still allowed to remain on the force and that was kept from the public. If you don't want to know right from wrong, that supports wrong and it just gets worse.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 10:16:51 AM PST, Don Curtis <don.curtis@...> wrote:



You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too. 

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture. 

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a desire.  Public safety is a government function and the "government" is elected by you and represents the citizens.  The voting public has 100% control of public agencies. 

Nuff said. 

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Re: crypto comm

don robinson
 

Our officers go to their cell phones when things get so risky.

On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 09:58:41 AM PST, Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...> wrote:



That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption. 

Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police. 

The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:

-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)
-NCIC (CJIS protected)
-Key holder info 
-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)
-Officer locations/calls
-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)
-Medical info/conditions

This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.

Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:
We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


Re: crypto comm

Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 

You don't like it, get your city/county/state/federal lawmakers to enact a law prohibiting encryption. 

If enough voters think like you, should be a piece of cake.

Until then, you will have live with it.

Just like I have to live with not being allowed to use amateur radio equipment without a license even though the airwaves belong to the public. 



Re: crypto comm

Pat Hines
 

As a long time radio op, and Extra licensee on the amateur bands, I strongly disagree.  First, most criminals have no idea how to operate one of the complex scanners available today.  Second, with the amount of money the drug cartels generate, buying crypto gear and cryto-compliant transceivers are well within their budgets.  Heck, some of them are wealthy enough to buy nuclear weapons should they want them.

Basically, the local cop argument against prohibiting encryptetd cop channels is a non-starter.


New Scanner Frequency Websites

Michael Martin
 

Hopefully this is allowed. I have 2 websites for scanner frequencies that
are up and operational to help with scanner frequencies.

GeorgiaScanner.com
ScanVermont.com

Next month I will be turning on ScanMontana.com.

Yes, I know RadioReference is "king" of the scanner websites, but they are
lacking in a LOT of data - especially business frequencies. There are also
Facebook pages for ScanAtlanta (predicesor to GeorgiaScanner) and
ScanVermont.

These sites are NON commercial and there is NO advertising, tracking or
subscription to them. Help keeping them current is always helpful.

/\/\|k.e


Re: crypto comm

Jim Walls
 

Here is an interesting option for agencies that are encrypted.  As I have said elsewhere, I run a regional P-25 trunked system for a living.  We have dozens of law enforcement agencies on the system. Some are fully encrypted, some are fully clear, and some are a mixture.

One agency that is full time encrypted has an interesting solution, that we have encouraged others to look into.  Their dispatch channel is full time encrypted, but they are streaming it to Broadcastify, but with about a 15 minute delay.  This removed any tactical advantage from the bad guys, but still gives the public and news media access to the channel.  Dispatch has a control that can dump the 15 minute buffer in the event that there is something that REALLY shouldn't go out over the air, but last I was aware of, they have never needed to push the button.  This feed is only for dispatch - the tactical channels are not fed.  Works quite well.

For the public, this can work better than a scanner.  Here's the scenario.  You are sitting at home and hear a bunch of sirens down the street.  You turn on a scanner and spend the next quite a while trying to figure out what is going on and where it is because you did not hear the initial dispatch.  With the delayed online feed, in the same scenario, you turn on the app on your phone, and a few minutes later you hear the initial dispatch.  Now you know what is happening and where.

--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
jim@...
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395


Re: P25 for Cheap

Jim Walls
 

On 11/10/2019 08:41, don robinson via Groups.Io wrote:
It's all been added struggle since digital was forced on cities of
the US.

Where do people get this idea?  No one was forced to go digital - period.  Narrowband yes by 1/1/2013 for VHF high and UHF (but not for VHF low or 800 - and 900 already was narrowband), but no requirement to go to digital.

Then they had to replace  or modify their equipment to motorola
monopoly radios and transmitters and they didn't work without modification

Say what?  If they are analog, they can use anybody's radios.  If an agency went digital, they most likely went with the P-25 standard. This is an open standard and anybody CAN build equipment to the P-25 standard - and essentially all the major manufacturers do.  This is a huge advantage because you are NOT locked into a specific radio manufacturer.  I run a regional P-25 trunking system for a living. We have radios from Harris, Kenwood, Tait, EF Johnson, and Motorola (maybe more that I am not remembering or aware of).  They all work just fine without any modification on our system.

more millions $$$$ must be spent annually to maintain and update that
same equipment.

Uh, ANY radio system needs to be maintained.  So do the user radios.  Nothing new here except that the newer radios are far faster and easier to maintain.  We can fully tune a portable radio in about six minutes - hook it up to the service monitor, push the AutoTune button and when it beeps, it's fully aligned.  As for the infrastructure, the system will tell us about most problems, and many repairs or re-configurations can be done without ever leaving the Radio Shop.


--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
jim@...
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395


Re: crypto comm

Joe M.
 

Let's please refrain from the personal innuendo.

List Moderator

On 11/10/2019 1:24 PM, Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association (TARRA) wrote:
"government" is
elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has 100%
control of public agencies.
Wow, guess we know what you are smoking down there in Colorado!

Mick

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Curtis
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:16:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

>
> You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
> unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.
>
> 26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there
> were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw
> motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture.
>
> Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a
> desire. Public safety is a government function and the "government" is
> elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has 100%
> control of public agencies.
>
> Nuff said.


Re: crypto comm

Joe M.
 

That's where brains come in. You never plan raids over the air. That should be done in the briefing room.

What you seem to forget is that the NEIGHBORS of those criminals can monitor, too, and provide valuable tips. Then the criminals go "bye bye" to a place where they cannot monitor. Encryption reduces the chances of catching them and that means more crime. Who wants that?

Again, it's the "we can do everything ourselves" mentality that prevails here. Or it might be the "don't make more work for us" mentality in some cases. Because prosecutions require a lot of paperwork.

Joe M.

On 11/10/2019 1:16 PM, Don Curtis wrote:

You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.


Re: crypto comm

Marty Toomajian
 

Rather than think I know better than what these agencies need,  I thank my lucky stars that I could listen to some great communications in the 80's just by programming a Bearcat or a Radio Shack Pro-200X.

I believe I lived through a unique time when crystals weren't needed and Tom Kneitel published frequencies that are today encrypted 99+% of the time. 

It was fun.  I was fortunate.  I'm thankful and I've moved on to other hobbies. 

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 1:07 PM ihc53 <ihc53@...> wrote:
99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Re: crypto comm

Donald Lambert <banjodhl@...>
 

Shawn;

Well said.

don/k0kuz

ZUT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thought for the week:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Without CW it's just CB
-Jess-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Any and all communications herein are the sole property of the email sender and originator. Any electronic intercept of this communication constitutes a violation of 50 U.S.C. § 1861(b)(2) of The Patriot Act. The use of this information in informal or formal proceedings, charges, investigations or indictments is strictly prohibited and rendered null and void if obtained without a warrant."
---------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------


On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 9:58:38 AM PST, Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...> wrote:



That sounds like a huge training issue. Not a problem with encryption. 

Most people who demand things to be in the clear seem to have some issues with authority. They are also the same people who say things like "I pay your salary" or "the taxpayers MUST be able to hear the police." They also spout off bout conspiracy theories about their local police. 

The officers need encryption for secure communications. There are all sorts of reasons why for example the following things are common over the air:

-victim info (sexual/Juvenile/domestic violence)
-NCIC (CJIS protected)
-Key holder info 
-Suspect names (NOT proven convicted people)
-Officer locations/calls
-Officer to officer discussions (trying to figure out options/enforcement)
-Medical info/conditions

This goes on. These guys are being attacked on a regular basis. The least we can do is give them secure comms which is dirt cheap and included in just about every radio off the shelf nowadays.

Also, question why you hold grudges with your local police and think they owe you something. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 21:51 jim myers <kd7eir@...> wrote:
We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


Re: crypto comm

Donald Lambert <banjodhl@...>
 

:-))

The levity was needed for this thread....

don/k0kuz

ZUT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thought for the week:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Without CW it's just CB
-Jess-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Any and all communications herein are the sole property of the email sender and originator. Any electronic intercept of this communication constitutes a violation of 50 U.S.C. § 1861(b)(2) of The Patriot Act. The use of this information in informal or formal proceedings, charges, investigations or indictments is strictly prohibited and rendered null and void if obtained without a warrant."
---------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------


On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 9:57:49 AM PST, William Barrett, KW1B <wbarrett@...> wrote:


"Secret Squirrels"
 
 
   73
KW1B
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of jim myers
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 21:48
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

We have about 9 LE agencies in my county. ONE of them insists on being encrypted 24/7. A few years ago they had an officer chasing a suspect across several municipalities. None of the other agencies could communicate with them in real time, and by the time their dispatch called the agency that he was currently chasing his suspect through with his location, several minutes had passed, and he was nowhere neat that location. Sadly, he was found shot in the head at the end of a road part way up a mountain.

At the time this happened, they were also on a standalone communications system that isolated them from ALL other LE agencies in the county. They finally decided to join the shared radio system, but STILL insist upon 24/7 encryption for their talkgroups. They are still the ONLY encrypted agency. They can switch to a shared, unencrypted, mutual channel if they need assistance. The last time they needed help, no one in their department know what channel to switch to...


Re: P25 for Cheap

Mark Lassman
 

Exactly. With analog, you could hear a weak signal if you were close enough, but with digital, you’re absolutely correct: it’s all or nothing. If you’re not 100% “in” you’re not “in” at all. 

Please explain to me how digital makes things better and safer for our police and firefighters? 

On Nov 9, 2019, at 5:02 PM, KA9QJG <KA9QJG@...> wrote:

With the New Digital you either  hear it or you don’t  when the battery gets weak…

 _._,_._,_


Re: crypto comm

Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association (TARRA)
 

"government" is
> elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has 100%
> control of public agencies.
Wow, guess we know what you are smoking down there in Colorado!

Mick

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Curtis
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:16:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] crypto comm

>
> You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is
> unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too.
>
> 26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there
> were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw
> motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture.
>
> Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a
> desire. Public safety is a government function and the "government" is
> elected by you and represents the citizens. The voting public has 100%
> control of public agencies.
>
> Nuff said.
>
>
> On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" wrote:
> > 99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted. And you
> > are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will
> > smack of "secret police."
> >
> > With very few exceptions, everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.
> >
> > Sent from my Galaxy Tab A
> >
> > -------- Original message --------
> > From: "William Barrett, KW1B"
> > Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > To: main@Uniden.groups.io
> > Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm
> >
> > I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
> > at a certain level. Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
> > while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
> > secrecy.
> >
> > In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
> > well-known to police and military communications people. Simply
> > encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
> > Not something most people would favor.
> >
> > Routine ops need to be in the clear.
> >
> > 73
> > bb
> > NC
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of
> > Shawn Benoit
> > Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
> > To: main@uniden.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap
> >
> >
> > I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change
> > that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. wrote:
> > Is that because crime only happens at the
> > police station and doesn't affect communities?
> >
> > Do you not care that you will be late to work because
> > there is an accident blocking your normal route?
> >
> > Do you not care that you will be ADDING
> > to the problem (traffic) in the above case?
> >
> > Are you fine with going to the mall when
> > there is an active shooter in the area?
> >
> > If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
> > are you OK letting your kids go out to play?
> >
> > A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
> > Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
> > Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.
> >
> > Joe M.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--


Re: crypto comm

Jerry Strahan
 

Here is a stupid chief...went to DMR,going to wait until people buy the expensive scanners , then encrypt. 
Minden  Louisiana. 
Jerry 


On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 12:16 PM, Don Curtis
<Don.Curtis@...> wrote:

You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too. 

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture. 

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a desire.  Public safety is a government function and the "government" is elected by you and represents the citizens.  The voting public has 100% control of public agencies. 

Nuff said. 

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Re: crypto comm

Don Curtis <Don.Curtis@...>
 


You all seem to forget... That unencrypted police radio means it is unencrypted for YOU and the criminals in town too. 

26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO and while not frequent, there were many times where (especially burglars, youth gangs and outlaw motorcycle groups) used scanners to avoid capture. 

Being able to listen to public safety radio is NOT a "right" but just a desire.  Public safety is a government function and the "government" is elected by you and represents the citizens.  The voting public has 100% control of public agencies. 

Nuff said. 

On November 10, 2019 10:59:00 AM "ihc53" <ihc53@...> wrote:

99 percent of police traffic should be in the clear, unencrypted.  And you are quite right, when everything is encrypted and in the shadows it will smack of "secret police."

With very few exceptions,  everything should be open to the taxpayers to hear.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

-------- Original message --------
From: "William Barrett, KW1B" <wbarrett@...>
Date: 11/9/19 5:23 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@Uniden.groups.io
Subject: [Uniden] crypto comm

I believe that citizens have the right and the responsibility to supervise
at a certain level.  Fully encrypted police comms are not accessaable,
while most are quite routine and do NOT require a high degree of
secrecy. 
 
In those few special other cases, there are methods of COMSEC
well-known to police and military communications people.  Simply
encryping everything is lazy and can lead to Secret Police Mindset.
Not something most people would favor.
 
Routine ops need to be in the clear.
 
   73
   bb
  NC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io]On Behalf Of Shawn Benoit
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 15:45
To: main@uniden.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap

I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:
Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.


Re: P25 for Cheap

Joe M.
 

It's useless to add decryption when you will never get the key.
(I know - the users will pay off the system operators for them.) ;->

Joe M.

On 11/10/2019 11:23 AM, Donald Lambert via Groups.Io wrote:
Never is a very long time. Sad to say that if the manufacturers see a
big enough profit in it they can buy a dispensation from the F.C.C.


Re: P25 for Cheap

Donald Lambert <banjodhl@...>
 

Never is a very long time. Sad to say that if the manufacturers see a big enough profit in it they can buy a dispensation from the F.C.C.

Very little if anything (that I know of) has been done by the F.C.C. to curtail the TV and grow light manufactures products from emitting stray rf being emitted from their products.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thought for the week:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Without CW it's just CB
-Jess-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Any and all communications herein are the sole property of the email sender and originator. Any electronic intercept of this communication constitutes a violation of 50 U.S.C. § 1861(b)(2) of The Patriot Act. The use of this information in informal or formal proceedings, charges, investigations or indictments is strictly prohibited and rendered null and void if obtained without a warrant."
---------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------


On Saturday, November 9, 2019, 6:37:03 PM PST, Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:


I agree if by "Won’t be long" you mean "NEVER".

There are a few issues preventing this.

1. The manufacturers will never make decryption available. It would
never pass FCC Type Acceptance for a consumer product since it would
violate FCC rules.

2. The manufacturers will never try to pull one over on the FCC because
they would be making products intended to violate FCC law. Any
manufacturer who tries this will soon be out of business due to FCC
fines which would escalate with each violation. Nobody has pockets that
deep - especially to pacify a bunch of scanner users.

3. Let's say the above is wrong and they can add decryption. You really
think the system owner is going to give YOU the key? Without that, you
can try 1 key per second and still never find the right one in your
lifetime. If it were that simple there would be PC software that would
decrypt.

Again, never gonna happen. Not in a commercial consumer product.

Joe M.


On 11/9/2019 8:11 PM, huntwildturkey8254 via Groups.Io wrote:
> Won’t be long, and scanner companies will be making encrypted radio
> scanners.
> BJN
>
>
>> On Nov 9, 2019, at 19:02, KA9QJG <KA9QJG@...> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Robert  . That was  very well said  I have  been the Communications
>> over 50 yrs  US Navy , Law Enforcement , 911 Dispatcher  and Ham
>> Radio,  I live in N/W Indiana  near Chicago and had to buy tie
>> expensive Uniden SDS-100  Just to hear My local PD/FD  and some is
>> Encrypted ,And I have worked  in Law Enforcement  Yes in some cases it
>> is needed,  But not for general  Communications .. We actually have a
>> few FB groups that are  listen and posting Live incidents with Audio
>> and Video and Pictures  , This is very dangerous and illegal . Also if
>> you  have enough money and want a Motorola APX  radio that the PD use
>> just  go to E bay and other places  some will even program the radios
>> for add  More money and Yes you can get the Encryption too . Just do
>> not get caught Even if the  Scanners  companies  would make  decoders
>> it is still illegal for us to Monitor  unless We are Authorized  by
>> the System administrator  of any system
>>
>> Happy Scanning while We can
>>
>> Don KA9QJG
>>
>> Ps  in Working Law Enforcement and a 911  Communications Dispatcher
>> Many yrs ago  I know of many cases where a Scanner listener have
>> called and helped out many times , one time when We has a Sgt call for
>> help His battery was  almost dead and the Dispatcher  did not hear
>> him,  But a scanner listener a block away did and called the
>> dispatcher and  was able to get him the help he needed  saving his
>> life and  catching the alleged  bad guys ,of course this was the good
>> ol analog days With the New Digital you either  hear it or you don’t
>>  when the battery gets weak…
>>
>> *From:*main@Uniden.groups.io [mailto:main@Uniden.groups.io] *On Behalf
>> Of *Robert A Klamp
>> *Sent:* Saturday, November 09, 2019 4:42 PM
>> *To:* main@Uniden.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap
>>
>> As intriguing as everyone's opinion on encryption is here that fact of
>> the matter. Ever since people started running streaming media of real
>> time police traffic enc use has skyrocketed. Broadcastify and Radio
>> Reference are your two biggest problem in the scanner world. I
>> remember having to go buy a book of all the local frequencies, having
>> to know how to program them into your scanner or radio, then having
>> the know how to distinguish what was being used for what. You had to
>> do it all your self or instead of buying the book you could throw on
>> the attenuator on your radio and drive around your area doing
>> frequency searches and seeing what hits you got. The big problem with
>> everything being one trunked system is everything is repeated there is
>> no more switch to 5 for simplex ops really happening anymore. Well
>> there is but not in very many places (at least where I live) I
>> remember when the biggest most populated county in my listening area
>> was VHF and all the tactical channels were vhf simplex. They have
>> since encrypted everything with AES256 on a county wide trunked
>> systems with a few different sites and multiple towers for each site.
>> The days of just throwing on your scanner and hearing what's going on
>> are pretty dead. Between CAD systems, encryption, cell phones,
>> cellular PTT like zello or worse yet first net, and many other factors
>> are becoming more and more popular. With the UHF T Band give/take back
>> police have less room in a frequency spectrum that was already
>> overcrowded but worked well for big cities it penetrated buildings and
>> other nuisances well and didn't really propagate to much so there was
>> much bleed over from other places half the country away like low band
>> and sometimes vhf have problems with. Then you have broadcastify just
>> spilling public safety radio traffic out for anybody who want it's
>> like oil from a tanker crash. Add that with almost every frequency in
>> use around the country being reported and published on radio reference
>> for any old schmuck to go look up and you start to see the problem. To
>> much info is readily available to the public. When my small area radio
>> monitoring group decided to stop keeping our own records of data in
>> our area and publish it all on radio reference because the owner of
>> that site hasn't made enough money yet exploiting are once exuberant
>> and lively hobby I saw the end sneaking up fast. But it's not my radio
>> clubs fault i blame radio reference and broadcastify were a criminal
>> can tune in clock patrol traffic and anything else they may need to
>> time and commit crimes with little to no resistance from public safety
>> already knowing what to expect. Or have a lookout listening to there
>> it on there smart phone when he used to have to have some kind of
>> skill with radios to listen to what he can now here with a click of a
>> mouse or worse yet an app on his smart phone. And now we have even
>> dumbed down the hobby further by putting the entire radio reference
>> database in the scanner for so all you have to do is download the
>> latest update and put in your zip code and pop everything from police
>> to public safety are preloaded with the latest information from the
>> biggest threat to our hobby. But wait in case you are so radio
>> incompetent that you don't even know how to lock out unwanted channels
>> don't worry you can just select the correct service tags to hear what
>> you want if your a criminal just lock out all but police services if
>> your a fire bug just lock out all but fire. These problems are not
>> going away they are just getting worse as we enable more and more
>> people who didn't have access to these comms easy access everything
>> they could want and use to the disadvantage of the public and public
>> safety. So of course police will encrypt. Fire will encrypt. And even
>> ems will encrypt there is to much much information available that once
>> upon a time was not. The part of this that makes me just sick is there
>> is one man behind it who hands out little freebies to those that help
>> him destroy our hobby while he take the big payday from
>> uniden,Whistler, and users of both his websites. Stop enabling him!
>> And the last thing I will bring up is the communications act of or the
>> communications privacy act of 1986 I believe should cover live
>> streaming  but for some reason that is loop hole. Make streaming
>> illegal and keep what you hear to yourself this used to be common
>> sense but now we have threads on radiorefernce with titles funniest
>> thing heard one scanner, best call heard on a scanner, active
>> emergency ops on your scanner and so on and so forth. When you ask
>> yourself why is my area going encrypted and why is my 700 dollar
>> scanner now a paper weight just do a search of what info is readily
>> available for your area and what people have posted about what they
>> are hearing in your area things should become a little more clear at
>> that point. I have a lot more to say but I will stop there for more
>> information on the legalities of disclosing what I'd heard on your
>> scanner please see the following link.
>>
>> https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2511
>>
>> And I know I have upset some people but these are just my thoughts and
>> opinions your allowed to have yours please allow me to have mine,
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...>
>>
>> Date: 11/9/19 14:45 (GMT-06:00)
>>
>> To: main@uniden.groups.io
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap
>>
>> I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will
>> change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@... <mailto:mch@...>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>    Is that because crime only happens at the
>>    police station and doesn't affect communities?
>>
>>    Do you not care that you will be late to work because
>>    there is an accident blocking your normal route?
>>
>>    Do you not care that you will be ADDING
>>    to the problem (traffic) in the above case?
>>
>>    Are you fine with going to the mall when
>>    there is an active shooter in the area?
>>
>>    If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
>>    are you OK letting your kids go out to play?
>>
>>    A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
>>    Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
>>    Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.
>>
>>    Joe M.
>>
>>    On 11/9/2019 12:54 PM, Shawn Benoit wrote:
>>    > Sure, you can get access to police radio recordings by a FOI
>>    request (to
>>    > be nosy). No one except the police need real-time access to
>>    encrypted
>>    > communications. Problem solved.
>>
>>
>>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>     Virus-free. www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>




Re: P25 for Cheap

Donald Lambert <banjodhl@...>
 

Mark;

I as well.

don/k0kuz

ZUT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thought for the week:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Without CW it's just CB
-Jess-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Any and all communications herein are the sole property of the email sender and originator. Any electronic intercept of this communication constitutes a violation of 50 U.S.C. § 1861(b)(2) of The Patriot Act. The use of this information in informal or formal proceedings, charges, investigations or indictments is strictly prohibited and rendered null and void if obtained without a warrant."
---------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------


On Saturday, November 9, 2019, 6:29:15 PM PST, Mark Lassman via Groups.Io <kb6kgx@...> wrote:


CHP does NOT use encryption. I listen to them all the time.

Where did you get that from?

> On Nov 9, 2019, at 9:15 AM, Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association (TARRA) <tarra@...> wrote:
> > The California Highway Patrol uses encryption but publishes an as-it-happens log on the web. Go figure.



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