Re: P25 for Cheap

Donald Lambert <banjodhl@...>

Rick Schafer;

Thank you for the Introduction to P25 ENCRYPTION.

Answered question I had about the subject.



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Thought for the week:
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Without CW it's just CB
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Any and all communications herein are the sole property of the email sender and originator. Any electronic intercept of this communication constitutes a violation of 50 U.S.C. § 1861(b)(2) of The Patriot Act. The use of this information in informal or formal proceedings, charges, investigations or indictments is strictly prohibited and rendered null and void if obtained without a warrant."

On Monday, November 11, 2019, 11:31:43 AM PST, Rick Schafer via Groups.Io <rickschafer75@...> wrote:

I think some just don’t understand the whole encryption process 
Most newer systems rekey over the air. Which means a radio has to authenticate with the system , be part of a crypto net to get the correct key. Then be available to get the new key , which can be sent at Will. A scanner will never be able to do this 

Introduction to P25

Call Types and Features


Topic Progress:   

Encryption in radio communications enables secure communication between parties and is achieved by loading the same key into all radios in a group.

The key is like a secret number or password that must be known in order to decrypt the call. Radios in their group can then talk amongst each other privately, and no outsiders can intercept the communications. Although analog encryption is possible, this typically degrades the audio quality and also results in a reduced coverage area, as stronger RF signals are needed to clearly receive the encrypted calls.

RF Signals

One of the key benefits of P25 Digital Radio over analog radio is the ability to securely encrypt calls without impacting the coverage area.

Enabling P25 encryption is easy. A channel or group is programmed to use encryption and a key is loaded into each radio that uses that group.

Encryption Key

DES uses a 56-bit encryption key and AES uses a 256-bit encryption key. The type of encryption to use depends on the type of information you’re protecting.

AES is a more secure form of encryption, however maintaining the security of that channel is more complicated.

Policies and procedures will need to be put into place to determine who is allowed to access the secure channel. In addition, plans will need to be in place to determine what to do if a radio with the key is lost or stolen. Often this is easily managed by having more than one encryption key.

P25 Encryption - ASK

Tactical teams that require a higher level of security may generate their own encryption keys for specific operations. They can tightly control or manage those radios, and have an up to date knowledge of their current status. A different key is used to encrypt general day-to-day communications and is available to a wide group of people.

Because a large group of people have access to this channel and the key, it is considered to have a low-level security. If the radio is lost, it could take some time for this to be reported and disabled. And replacing the key and all of the radios will be a time consuming, costly exercise and may only happen on rare occasions.

Larger systems may use a feature called over the air rekeying, or OTAR. This allows the updating of the key over the air and dramatically simplifies the process of rekeying the radios in the field. You do not need to physically touch each radio to load the key with a key-loader. However, OTAR still has an administration overhead to track down and follow-up on any problem radios that could not be rekeyed. This is common where multiple shifts, spare radios, and specialist vehicles mean radios are not powered on and active on the radio system all of the time.

EnableProtect Diagram-02

In summary, P25 makes it very easy to add encryption to a radio system. However, it is important to have a good plan in place to ensure communication stays secure and the administrative overhead of managing the radios is in line with the level of security required.

This concludes our introduction to P25. We hope it was helpful for you.

If you’d like to contact us please follow the link below or post in the P25 forums.

On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:57 AM, Rich <rk911forums@...> wrote:

 ain't gonna happen.  illegal for one thing.  

Rich via iPad

On Nov 9, 2019, at 19:11, huntwildturkey8254 via Groups.Io <huntwildturkey8254@...> wrote:

Won’t be long, and scanner companies will be making encrypted radio scanners.

On Nov 9, 2019, at 19:02, KA9QJG <KA9QJG@...> wrote:

Robert  . That was  very well said  I have  been the Communications over 50 yrs   US Navy , Law Enforcement , 911 Dispatcher  and Ham Radio,   I live in N/W Indiana  near Chicago and had to buy tie expensive Uniden SDS-100  Just to hear My local PD/FD  and some is Encrypted ,And I have worked  in Law Enforcement  Yes in some cases it is needed,   But not for general  Communications .. We actually have a few FB groups that are  listen and posting Live incidents with Audio and Video and Pictures  , This is very dangerous and illegal . Also if you  have enough money and want a Motorola APX  radio that the PD use  just  go to E bay and other places  some will even program the radios for add  More money and Yes you can get the Encryption too . Just do not get caught Even if the  Scanners  companies  would make  decoders it is still illegal for us to Monitor  unless We are Authorized   by the System administrator   of any system


Happy Scanning while We can




Ps  in Working Law Enforcement and a 911  Communications Dispatcher Many yrs ago  I know of many cases where a Scanner listener have called and helped out many times , one time when We has a Sgt call for help His battery was  almost dead and the Dispatcher  did not hear him,  But a scanner listener a block away did and called the dispatcher and  was able to get him the help he needed  saving his life and  catching the alleged  bad guys ,of course this was the good ol analog days With the New Digital you either  hear it or you don’t  when the battery gets weak…


From: [] On Behalf Of Robert A Klamp
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2019 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap


As intriguing as everyone's opinion on encryption is here that fact of the matter. Ever since people started running streaming media of real time police traffic enc use has skyrocketed. Broadcastify and Radio Reference are your two biggest problem in the scanner world. I remember having to go buy a book of all the local frequencies, having to know how to program them into your scanner or radio, then having the know how to distinguish what was being used for what. You had to do it all your self or instead of buying the book you could throw on the attenuator on your radio and drive around your area doing frequency searches and seeing what hits you got. The big problem with everything being one trunked system is everything is repeated there is no more switch to 5 for simplex ops really happening anymore. Well there is but not in very many places (at least where I live) I remember when the biggest most populated county in my listening area was VHF and all the tactical channels were vhf simplex. They have since encrypted everything with AES256 on a county wide trunked systems with a few different sites and multiple towers for each site. The days of just throwing on your scanner and hearing what's going on are pretty dead. Between CAD systems, encryption, cell phones, cellular PTT like zello or worse yet first net, and many other factors are becoming more and more popular. With the UHF T Band give/take back police have less room in a frequency spectrum that was already overcrowded but worked well for big cities it penetrated buildings and other nuisances well and didn't really propagate to much so there was much bleed over from other places half the country away like low band and sometimes vhf have problems with. Then you have broadcastify just spilling public safety radio traffic out for anybody who want it's like oil from a tanker crash. Add that with almost every frequency in use around the country being reported and published on radio reference for any old schmuck to go look up and you start to see the problem. To much info is readily available to the public. When my small area radio monitoring group decided to stop keeping our own records of data in our area and publish it all on radio reference because the owner of that site hasn't made enough money yet exploiting are once exuberant and lively hobby I saw the end sneaking up fast. But it's not my radio clubs fault i blame radio reference and broadcastify were a criminal can tune in clock patrol traffic and anything else they may need to time and commit crimes with little to no resistance from public safety already knowing what to expect. Or have a lookout listening to there it on there smart phone when he used to have to have some kind of skill with radios to listen to what he can now here with a click of a mouse or worse yet an app on his smart phone. And now we have even dumbed down the hobby further by putting the entire radio reference database in the scanner for so all you have to do is download the latest update and put in your zip code and pop everything from police to public safety are preloaded with the latest information from the biggest threat to our hobby. But wait in case you are so radio incompetent that you don't even know how to lock out unwanted channels don't worry you can just select the correct service tags to hear what you want if your a criminal just lock out all but police services if your a fire bug just lock out all but fire. These problems are not going away they are just getting worse as we enable more and more people who didn't have access to these comms easy access everything they could want and use to the disadvantage of the public and public safety. So of course police will encrypt. Fire will encrypt. And even ems will encrypt there is to much much information available that once upon a time was not. The part of this that makes me just sick is there is one man behind it who hands out little freebies to those that help him destroy our hobby while he take the big payday from uniden,Whistler, and users of both his websites. Stop enabling him! And the last thing I will bring up is the communications act of or the communications privacy act of 1986 I believe should cover live streaming  but for some reason that is loop hole. Make streaming illegal and keep what you hear to yourself this used to be common sense but now we have threads on radiorefernce with titles funniest thing heard one scanner, best call heard on a scanner, active emergency ops on your scanner and so on and so forth. When you ask yourself why is my area going encrypted and why is my 700 dollar scanner now a paper weight just do a search of what info is readily available for your area and what people have posted about what they are hearing in your area things should become a little more clear at that point. I have a lot more to say but I will stop there for more information on the legalities of disclosing what I'd heard on your scanner please see the following link.






And I know I have upset some people but these are just my thoughts and opinions your allowed to have yours please allow me to have mine,


Thank you,





Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------

From: Shawn Benoit <shawnbenoit@...>

Date: 11/9/19 14:45 (GMT-06:00)

Subject: Re: [Uniden] P25 for Cheap


I'm pro encryption for police and EMS communications. Nothing will change that even though it's a hobby and I like to listen. 


On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 13:09 Joe M. <mch@...> wrote:

Is that because crime only happens at the
police station and doesn't affect communities?

Do you not care that you will be late to work because
there is an accident blocking your normal route?

Do you not care that you will be ADDING
to the problem (traffic) in the above case?

Are you fine with going to the mall when
there is an active shooter in the area?

If there is a felon loose in your neighborhood,
are you OK letting your kids go out to play?

A FOIA request will not solve any of these cases.
Encryption will not alert you to these cases.
Only clear communications will let you know WHEN you need to know it.

Joe M.

On 11/9/2019 12:54 PM, Shawn Benoit wrote:
> Sure, you can get access to police radio recordings by a FOI request (to
> be nosy). No one except the police need real-time access to encrypted
> communications. Problem solved.

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